Feb. 24, 2025
Combatting Ghosting In The Professional World
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That Solo Life Episode 288: Combatting Ghosting In The Professional World
Summary
In Episode 288 Karen Swim, APR and Michelle Kane discuss strategies for dealing with being "ghosted" by potential clients or employers. The key points of the episode are:
- Avoid situations where no response is expected, like applying to job postings or responding to RFPs without any prior interaction. Try to force human interaction instead.
- When meeting with a prospect, ask questions to prequalify them and ensure they are serious about hiring an agency or employee. Look for red flags like not having a defined budget or timeline.
- If a prospect does ghost you, don't take it personally. It likely has nothing to do with you. Maintain a positive attitude and follow up periodically in case their situation changes.
- When submitting a proposal, offer to have a follow-up meeting to discuss it and address any concerns. This helps ensure you get a response.
- Overall, the advice is to be selective about the opportunities you pursue, maintain professionalism, and not internalize the ghosting as a reflection on yourself or your capabilities.
In This Episode
In this episode of That Solo Life, co-hosts Karen Swim and Michelle Kane discuss the frustrating phenomenon of ghosting in the professional world by clients, prospects and other business contacts. The conversation kicks off acknowledging the emotional toll that ghosting can take, drawing parallels to its origins in dating culture. Michelle and Karen share their personal experiences and frustrations with being ghosted by prospects and potential collaborators, emphasizing the importance of human connection in professional relationships.
The hosts discuss the normalization of ghosting, especially in job applications and proposals, where candidates often receive no feedback at all. Karen highlights the need for follow-ups as a proactive strategy to combat ghosting, encouraging listeners to reach out and touch base with prospects. Michelle and Karen also explore the significance of ensuring human interaction in the proposal process, advising against situations where responses are unlikely.
Throughout the episode, the hosts provide practical tactics for minimizing ghosting, such as pre-qualifying prospects and asking critical questions during initial meetings. They stress the importance of understanding a company's current agency situation and budget before investing time in proposals. Both hosts agree that if a prospect is not ready or serious, it’s perfectly acceptable to walk away from the opportunity.
As we navigate the complexities of ghosting, it’s also important to touch on the emotional aspect of not taking it personally. Listeners are encouraged to maintain their self-worth and not internalize the actions of others. The conversation culminates in a call for better communication practices in the workplace, advocating for a culture of respect and transparency.
Listeners will walk away with actionable insights on how to handle ghosting, the importance of follow-ups, and the value of maintaining a positive mindset in the face of professional challenges. We invite you to share your thoughts and experiences with us, and as always, we appreciate your support in spreading the word about That Solo Life.
Episode Timestamps00:00:00 - Introduction to Ghosting in Professional Relationships Discussion on the prevalence of ghosting in both personal and professional contexts.
00:02:40 - The Emotional Impact of Ghosting Exploration of how ghosting affects mental well-being and the importance of respectful communication.
00:03:50 - The Shift in Job Application Responses Reflection on the decline of communication in job applications and the normalization of ghosting.
00:05:30 - The Importance of Human Interaction Advice on ensuring human contact in professional interactions to minimize ghosting.
00:08:00 - Pre-Qualifying Prospects Strategies for assessing the seriousness of potential clients or employers before investing time.
00:10:30 - Handling Proposals and Follow-Ups Tips on following up after meetings and proposals to encourage responses.
00:12:50 - Understanding Budget Discussions Discussion on the significance of budget clarity in client relationships and proposals.
00:15:30 - Maintaining Contact After Ghosting Suggestions for staying in touch with prospects who may not be ready to engage.
00:18:00 - Not Taking Ghosting Personally Advice on how to detach personal feelings from professional ghosting experiences.
00:20:30 - The Importance of Communication Emphasis on the need for clear communication in professional settings to avoid ghosting.
00:22:00 - Company Culture and Ghosting Discussion on how a company's culture reflects in their communication practices.
00:24:00 - Final Thoughts and Encouragement Encouragement to maintain professionalism and understanding in the face of ghosting.
Resources:
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That Solo Life Episode 288: Combatting Ghosting In The Professional World
Michelle Kane (00:12):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of That Solo Life, the podcast for PR pros and marketers who work for themselves, people like me, Michelle Kane, with The Voice Matters and my wonderful co-host, Karen Swim of Solo PR Pro. Hey Karen.
Karen Swim, APR (00:25):
Hello, Michelle. How are you today?
Michelle Kane (00:28):
I'm doing all right. Doing all right. Riding the wave at these crazy times. How about you
Karen Swim, APR (00:32):
Living the dream,
Michelle Kane (00:34):
Aren't we though? That's true. And it is still a dream that we are living. Perspective is key these days. And one of the items that can almost be a little bit nightmarish in our dream is getting ghosted by prospects, even ghosted by fellow pros that you might want to partner with or work with. So today we're just going to talk about some tactics that you can use to, I guess, what are we doing? We're scaring the ghost out of the house. I can't think of a better one, I can't think of a good metaphor these days. Sorry, my brain is,
Karen Swim, APR (01:16):
Yeah, it's so unfortunate that ghosting has been around for a while and it really first started to get illuminated in dating culture and then it just made its way into the workplace and took hold and I heard and hr and is she an HR professional? I believe so. Chameleon resumes, I believe is the name of the company, say that ghosting hurts your heart and your mind. And I think that that's really true because as human beings, no one likes to start a relationship, whether that relationship is a professional relationship or potential business relationship and then just be completely ignored to just have someone not respond to you that really hurts. But it also can hurt your mind because you spin tells in your head about what you did to cause it. And so I hate this trend. I hate it with passion. I want it to cease. I wish that we could go back to being kind to one another, being respectful, but today we're going to talk about some tactics to minimize it, but also to handle it when it inevitably happens.
Michelle Kane (02:43):
Yeah, and I think part of the issue too is when it became normal to not receive any word when you applied for a job, right? I mean, I think we both remember you would at least get the rejection letter or the rejection email and now you get nothing and the story goes, oh, there's just too many. I'm like, really? That's interesting because you can put too many emails into a marketing email. You can automate that stuff. And so it's just really become way too part of our culture. And like you say, even though it may not harm your psyche in a big way, it's still a little chip in it and it's just not good. I mean, I don't think there's any good reason to do it. And I do understand the flip side of, hey, we all get busy. I know we've all put proposals out and you don't hear within the timeline that you think you should. And I get it. Sometimes I'm not great at returning emails to things that don't fit in the top tier of my triage. However, I would say the first way to combat it is follow up. Just follow up, touch base. Nothing wrong with that.
Karen Swim, APR (04:05):
And I think you brought out something really interesting. So I separate ghosting. So when we are uploading a resume
Karen Swim, APR (04:14):
Into
Karen Swim, APR (04:15):
A system, it's no human interaction. An algorithm is going to filter you out. Same thing when you respond to an RFP and just upload a proposal
Michelle Kane (04:27):
That's true
Karen Swim, APR (04:28):
To an email address. There is no human interaction. So my recommendation for making sure that you are not faced with a lack of response, because chances are with both of those scenarios which are similar, you're not going to get one. Your chances of not receiving a response are so much higher than someone responding to you. And so one way to minimize ghosting is to make sure that you are forcing human interaction. And if there is no ability to interact with a human being, then it's probably not worth your time. And we're going to stand by that because RFPs are notoriously a big time suck. So often there's a certain type of company that puts together an RFP, and in reality it does not even clearly articulate what's really needed to have success on the thing that they're searching for.
(05:28):
There are a couple of differences, RFPs where you're invited and you're having a conversation before you actually put something in writing. Because if you can speak to people and if you can determine that it's something that is really winnable, you really have a shot at it. So maybe there's only five agencies that are being invited to bid, that's a different scenario, but you at least have that human contact. So my advice, don't put yourself in these situations where no response is acceptable because in those situations you can't get offended. You took a shot, you uploaded a resume, you uploaded a response, and you took a shot at something. It does not mean that you were guaranteed to get a rejection or any type of response unless they're interested in moving forward. And again, a high percentage of the time that just does not happen. So avoid those situations.
Michelle Kane (06:25):
Yeah, and I would say sometimes that is mirrored in the job search, right? You, I'm sure we've all had the experience where you might go for an interview or you pursue something and then once you're in the process you realize, okay, you guys really don't know what you're hiring for. And so I completely agree. I completely agree. And sometimes too, I found that the prospect has questions, maybe that they're not sure how to ask, and that maybe didn't come up in your first interaction. So that's also a good way to get some reaction or response is to just try to suss that out if you can. It's like, Hey, I know we talked about this. Is there anything that maybe you've thought of in the meantime as you've reviewed this proposal? Just to really try and get them to reengage on that level.
Karen Swim, APR (07:22):
And it's true ghosting when you have a meeting or if you're a job applicant and you've interviewed for a job, so you've actually taken the time, maybe you've driven somewhere, you've put on your best suit and you are there, you've done the prep work. And in both of those situations, and even if it's a virtual meeting, it still takes time to prepare for those meetings to meet with either potential employer or a potential business partner, and then you hear nothing back. So on both fronts, I would say do as much research as you can on that company and their track record from the business perspective, do they have a current agency in place? Because that's telling. Sometimes companies will use this tactic of searching for an agency just to find out if they can get a lower price or what's out there, and then they want to leverage what they hear from other agencies to try and pressure their current agency into lowering their rates.
Michelle Kane (08:33):
So
Karen Swim, APR (08:33):
If they have another agency, do not be afraid. If you decide to take this meeting to ask, we know that you have another agency in place, can you share with us why you're looking for someone new? You also want to always pre-qualify for jobs
Karen Swim, APR (08:50):
And
Karen Swim, APR (08:50):
Also for business. Are they really hiring? Are they hiring an agency or hiring an employer? What's the date that you want to see someone in place? Do you have a defined budget for this? Is the role really currently open? So you want to, for solos, we have this whole prequalification questionnaire on our site that you can make your own but ask questions before you commit anything to writing. So you want to use this face-to-face time to really get to solid answers because if they don't have a defined budget, they don't have a date when they really want you to be in place, they can articulate really why they're looking for an agency. Those are red flags,
Karen Swim, APR (09:36):
And
Karen Swim, APR (09:36):
You are very free at the end of this conversation to follow up with an email that said it was really great to meet with you after some consideration. We've decided that we're not the right agency for you. We wish you the best in your search. Exactly. You are not obligated to follow up with a written proposal just because you met with something. Trust your gut, your time is valuable, and we do not have time to waste on proposals for people that are trying to use it to pressure their current agency or just kind of licking around. They just want to know You want to find out facts, you Google some stuff. I am not your
Michelle Kane (10:18):
Girl. Yeah, I mean that is so true. And the major red flag is do you have a budget? And if it's no or if it's small, you just think, well, then I'm not accusing you, but you're not really serious about this if you don't think that you need to put an actual budget to your marketing
Karen Swim, APR (10:41):
100%.
Michelle Kane (10:42):
There's really not much farther we can go. And I know sometimes I've had prospects where they openly don't know what they don't know, and a way that I can get paid time or we can get paid four hour intellectual efforts is to have phase one. Well, phase one is I'll, I'll do the research and you'll get a strategy and then you can decide from there, so at least you'll get a product. I'm not putting strategy in my proposal. I think we are so ingrained as helpers that we need to stop ourselves before we give it away for free. So that's one way for sure you
Karen Swim, APR (11:27):
Can actually give them a strategy. We've offered up helping them to source an agency for a fee. Another thing that I do is that I'm never afraid to throw out a number because you're right, there are companies that have not done PR. They have no idea. And they'll tell you that they were like, we really don't have any idea what the budget for this is. Here's what we're looking to do. And then I'll say, well, were you thinking in X to X range? Or I might throw out a wildly big number or here, and they'll tell you because they'll be like, oh, okay, because you just are helping them frame it.
Michelle Kane (12:04):
Yes,
Karen Swim, APR (12:04):
Exactly. So I'm not saying that if they don't have a budget at all, again, this is where you have to use wisdom and be discerning. Sometimes people really are clueless. They really do want the service. They just have no knowledge and have never hired for it. So they come into it honestly saying, we really don't know because we've not done this well. Here's what you're looking at. And then you can find out how serious they are.
Michelle Kane (12:32):
Yeah, and that and of itself, I think to many of them, especially some of the small businesses that I meet with, I mean small businesses, that is a help because they don't realize what goes into a successful program or even what their parameters should be if they're trying to tough it out and do things themselves. I think it really helps them with reality because my goodness, I could think of so many industries that I am the same way. True. It's like, oh, I need a plumber to do X, Y, Z. Well, what does that cost?
Karen Swim, APR (13:09):
Yes, because it's not our area of expertise. And if it's not a service that you hire for all the time or have done before, you just really have no idea until you go looking.
Michelle Kane (13:18):
Yeah, and I would say if the ghosting is longer term and you're still interested for whatever reason and keeping touch with this person, maybe it's an industry you really want to work in. Maybe you had a really good feeling and you're just like, well, I don't know. Stuff happens. It doesn't hurt to touch base maybe every six weeks or so. If you see something interesting in the news or in the industry that could be helpful to them, shoot 'em an email just like, Hey, did you see this thinking of you? I hope everything's okay, just staying present in their world. Because I think a lot of times too, they think they want to start a program, but they're really not ready. I mean, I know we've had that happen where we're talking, we're like, yeah, you're not ready for us yet. So you just try and keep in touch.
Karen Swim, APR (14:08):
They're not ready. And something shifts internally. The person that you were in contact with actually leaves the company and you didn't know that. Sadly, I've even had contacts pass away.
Karen Swim, APR (14:24):
So
Karen Swim, APR (14:25):
Sometimes there's a legitimate reason. Well, except for death and illness, those still aren't legitimate reasons for not communicating back with someone. But you're right, you should have a tickler of follow up and just keep following up. I mean, I followed up with people for a year before something happened. It hasn't been radio silence that entire year, but it took some work.
(14:53):
Another tactic that you might use just to make sure that you're going to get a response is if you are at the point where you're going to submit a proposal, so you've met with them, you've talked to them, you're like, okay, this sounds great. I would be excited to do this work. We can actually do this work and we actually have a chance. And they're very serious. You could let them know, Hey, we have an agency policy that we deliver the proposals and we need to meet within 48 hours of delivery because that gives us the opportunity to talk through it. So you set up a next meeting. If you're not comfortable with that language, you can also just use a softer touch to say, Hey, before we deliver the proposal to make sure that we can go through it to together, let's set up a meeting now that we can go through it together because you will have questions and we want to walk you through our thinking and then address any concerns or questions that you might have. So set up a time on your calendars to actually have another face-to-face once you've given them the proposal and try to deliver that proposal as close to that meeting as possible so that there's not,
(16:12):
I also sort of safeguard against, because sometimes budgets, even when you've talked about them, when people see them on paper, they freak out.
Karen Swim, APR (16:21):
So
Karen Swim, APR (16:22):
I always tell people that I just address it right up front. Listen, we're putting together something based upon our conversation, but if the numbers are more than you thought that they were, please don't let that deter you. Let's talk about it because we can talk about the scope of work. I just put it on the table.
Michelle Kane (16:42):
Exactly.
Karen Swim, APR (16:44):
Those are a couple ways that you can minimize. Now, I will tell you, nothing is foolproof because human beings are human beings. And in spite of doing everything right, you're still going to run into those instances where someone is just not going to respond to you,
Michelle Kane (17:01):
Right? And please don't take it personally. It's never personal. It's just I think we all know how busy and overwhelming our day to day can get. It's not personal. You're just nowhere near the top of the list. It's just not a priority for them. And that in and of itself does communicate something, doesn't it? Clearly they're not ready, but it doesn't mean you can't make your presence known and just let them know that, Hey, remember when you asked me to spend time on something? Hi.
Karen Swim, APR (17:35):
I think the best piece of wisdom, you just said it. There's this book that I'm reading, the Four Agreements and one is don’t take It personally. Here's where we really protect ourselves from negative feedback, from no feedback, from ghosting, is that we do not allow other people to tell us how to feel about ourselves. They are responding in a way that is who they are.
Michelle Kane (18:05):
Yes,
Karen Swim, APR (18:06):
Their journey, part of their perception, and even their perception of who you are. So maybe in their perception of who you are, and the way that they're telling your story is that it's not going to bother you if they don't respond and you'll know that something happened and they don't want to move forward. They're making assumptions. And so when you personalize somebody else's interpretation of your story, you've now bought into that narrative and you've given over your control. This can be a game changer, I promise you, when you actively learn to just say, eh, I'm not internalizing that. I'm not taking it personally, that's their thing, and that's on them, it's not on me. And you just continue to move forward. It brings about a dead cold calmness that allows you to be so clear in your actions and to never lose your sense of self, your joy, your peace, your happiness about who you are and what you do. So just don't take it personally, but more than words, you really have to take a beat and say, that's them. That's who they are. That's how they're living their story. It has nothing to do with me. It's not like they looked at you as a human being or as an agency and said, you completely suck. I hated your shirt. You wear your hair weird. Your eye color doesn't match what I wanted it to be. You have zero experience and I'm just not even going to talk to you because
(19:48):
They're
Michelle Kane (19:49):
Just not that into us. That's all.
Karen Swim, APR (19:51):
And it's not because of you, because you know that you are smart, capable because you won't put yourself out there for something that you think you cannot do.
Michelle Kane (20:01):
So
Karen Swim, APR (20:02):
It's really not you, and it's not a personal thing, and it's their failing because I truly believe that we win when we communicate with everyone. I don't care if you got a hundred job applications, if you are getting too many job applications, change your freaking process. Be more targeted and intentional in hiring people because this does, it just gets me so riled up. I hear from too many good capable people who have gone on board five in-person interviews and then get ghosted. That is a shame. There's no excuse for it.
Michelle Kane (20:36):
There is no excuse for that at that
Karen Swim, APR (20:37):
Level.
Michelle Kane (20:38):
Absolutely not. You're
Karen Swim, APR (20:39):
Doing this. You belong in the big fat hall of shame and no one should ever want to work with you because it's such a lack of respect to humanity. You're sending a message that that person doesn't even matter enough. They spent time preparing, coming to an interview, meeting with you, not once, not twice, not three times, four times. Some people have gone on six interviews. This is torture in and of itself. And then you say nothing,
Karen Swim, APR (21:07):
Grow
Karen Swim, APR (21:08):
A pair and tell people why you're not moving forward with the process, because that's the human thing to do. And you know what? We've got to get used to having those hard conversations again. Does it feel good to tell someone, I'm sorry, we're not going to hire you. Of course it doesn't, but it feels worse to be left not understanding what happened. And we still will spill that too. When you put yourself out there with a proposal and you put everything into it, and you have been creative and you've really thought about this company, and you have given it over to the hope that you're going to get to work with them, and you're excited about that, and then they say nothing to you, radio silence. It's rude.
Michelle Kane (21:50):
And in that instance, when you're that deep, then it's probably not a place you want to be anyway, because if that's how they treat you there, I mean, that's a culture problem for sure. Yeah.
Karen Swim, APR (22:03):
Does anybody with a great company culture is not going to just completely ghost you in that way because they care about who you are as a human being.
Michelle Kane (22:14):
They just do things right. Yeah, no, no.
Karen Swim, APR (22:17):
But I will advise you. Do not retaliate as much as you may want to go on LinkedIn and blast them from here to South America, don't do it. If you feel like you need to rank and get it out, call a colleague, write a letter.
Michelle Kane (22:36):
Exactly.
Karen Swim, APR (22:36):
Write an email. But don't put in anybody in the sender. I just don't put a name in the sender. I just type it all out because sometimes you can accidentally hit send, so, but if there's no name there, it won't send. Even if you screw up, get it out. However, you need to get out that human emotion. And then again, remember it's not you. And don't let them make you buy into their version of you.
Michelle Kane (23:02):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Their dysfunction is not your problem.
Karen Swim, APR (23:06):
It is not.
Michelle Kane (23:07):
No. And really at the end of it all, even though it might be a piece of work or somewhere you want to be that you're like, oh, I really, really want to be there. I am a firm believer, even sometimes when it's lean and you're like, that is what is meant for you, will not miss you.
Karen Swim, APR (23:24):
Yeah.
Michelle Kane (23:26):
Hold on to that.
Karen Swim, APR (23:27):
If I've intentionally ghosted anybody, I'm going to apologize right now. Sometimes I've gone back and I've realized that I missed an email, looked for something, and I go back and I go, oh my gosh, I am so sorry. I apologize for not following up. So always be willing to exercise a little grace and a little forgiveness for people because people are going through a lot. But again, I mean, if you don't hear back, you definitely can follow up. Follow up and say, Hey,
Michelle Kane (24:02):
Yeah, it doesn't take long for someone to dash out two sentences and with AI now to rate it for you. Really, no excuse. I remember, I'm going way, way back in the way back machine when I was first hired at the ad agency that I worked at. My first job was to write the rejection, send out the rejection letters to everybody who didn't get it. I thought, Ooh, this feels a little cold.
Karen Swim, APR (24:29):
Yeah, worked. I mean, it didn't come easy for me. I worked in HR and I have looked for applicants in that process. That whole process is, it's a lot of work internally too. But again, there are certain things that are not ghosting. So if you get an unsolicited email from somebody selling you something, you're not required to respond to that somebody. They took a shot. You don't have to answer. And I feel the same way about portals. If you're uploading something and there's no human
Karen Swim, APR (25:00):
Interaction,
Karen Swim, APR (25:01):
Don't set yourself up with this mindset that you're going to hear something, anything, because chances are you won't take the shot if that's what you feel like you have to do. But it's one reason why I really just have never been a fan of RFPs, except when they're invited and they're very, very intentional. One of our current favorite clients, current favorite, one of our favorite clients who's a current client.
Michelle Kane (25:32):
No, that was right the first time
Karen Swim, APR (25:34):
We won the business through an RFP, but it was such a, you could tell that they were super thoughtful throughout this whole entire process and so human and so fun. And I have to tell you that this is a company whose company culture shines through at every touch point, and it has for several years of working with them. They truly are who they say they are. And it's lived in every part of the company. And I feel like, what a gift, because it should be the norm.
Michelle Kane (26:08):
Well, so here's the thing about that, right? Clearly there is a successful company, which just goes to show we are all capable of doing the right thing and doing right by each other. And let's try and elevate our world by living by that a little more. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to do it. So there you have it. There you have it. Wow. Thanks for spending this time with us today. We hope you got something out of this. If you did, please do share this around. Go over and hit us up on solo pro.com. We'd love to hear ideas for topics you want us to talk about, and please do review our podcast wherever you listen to it. We'd love for that as well so that more people can hear the good news we have to share with you. And until next time, thanks for listening to That Solo Life.
Michelle Kane (00:12):
Thank you for joining us for this episode of That Solo Life, the podcast for PR pros and marketers who work for themselves, people like me, Michelle Kane, with The Voice Matters and my wonderful co-host, Karen Swim of Solo PR Pro. Hey Karen.
Karen Swim, APR (00:25):
Hello, Michelle. How are you today?
Michelle Kane (00:28):
I'm doing all right. Doing all right. Riding the wave at these crazy times. How about you
Karen Swim, APR (00:32):
Living the dream,
Michelle Kane (00:34):
Aren't we though? That's true. And it is still a dream that we are living. Perspective is key these days. And one of the items that can almost be a little bit nightmarish in our dream is getting ghosted by prospects, even ghosted by fellow pros that you might want to partner with or work with. So today we're just going to talk about some tactics that you can use to, I guess, what are we doing? We're scaring the ghost out of the house. I can't think of a better one, I can't think of a good metaphor these days. Sorry, my brain is,
Karen Swim, APR (01:16):
Yeah, it's so unfortunate that ghosting has been around for a while and it really first started to get illuminated in dating culture and then it just made its way into the workplace and took hold and I heard and hr and is she an HR professional? I believe so. Chameleon resumes, I believe is the name of the company, say that ghosting hurts your heart and your mind. And I think that that's really true because as human beings, no one likes to start a relationship, whether that relationship is a professional relationship or potential business relationship and then just be completely ignored to just have someone not respond to you that really hurts. But it also can hurt your mind because you spin tells in your head about what you did to cause it. And so I hate this trend. I hate it with passion. I want it to cease. I wish that we could go back to being kind to one another, being respectful, but today we're going to talk about some tactics to minimize it, but also to handle it when it inevitably happens.
Michelle Kane (02:43):
Yeah, and I think part of the issue too is when it became normal to not receive any word when you applied for a job, right? I mean, I think we both remember you would at least get the rejection letter or the rejection email and now you get nothing and the story goes, oh, there's just too many. I'm like, really? That's interesting because you can put too many emails into a marketing email. You can automate that stuff. And so it's just really become way too part of our culture. And like you say, even though it may not harm your psyche in a big way, it's still a little chip in it and it's just not good. I mean, I don't think there's any good reason to do it. And I do understand the flip side of, hey, we all get busy. I know we've all put proposals out and you don't hear within the timeline that you think you should. And I get it. Sometimes I'm not great at returning emails to things that don't fit in the top tier of my triage. However, I would say the first way to combat it is follow up. Just follow up, touch base. Nothing wrong with that.
Karen Swim, APR (04:05):
And I think you brought out something really interesting. So I separate ghosting. So when we are uploading a resume
Karen Swim, APR (04:14):
Into
Karen Swim, APR (04:15):
A system, it's no human interaction. An algorithm is going to filter you out. Same thing when you respond to an RFP and just upload a proposal
Michelle Kane (04:27):
That's true
Karen Swim, APR (04:28):
To an email address. There is no human interaction. So my recommendation for making sure that you are not faced with a lack of response, because chances are with both of those scenarios which are similar, you're not going to get one. Your chances of not receiving a response are so much higher than someone responding to you. And so one way to minimize ghosting is to make sure that you are forcing human interaction. And if there is no ability to interact with a human being, then it's probably not worth your time. And we're going to stand by that because RFPs are notoriously a big time suck. So often there's a certain type of company that puts together an RFP, and in reality it does not even clearly articulate what's really needed to have success on the thing that they're searching for.
(05:28):
There are a couple of differences, RFPs where you're invited and you're having a conversation before you actually put something in writing. Because if you can speak to people and if you can determine that it's something that is really winnable, you really have a shot at it. So maybe there's only five agencies that are being invited to bid, that's a different scenario, but you at least have that human contact. So my advice, don't put yourself in these situations where no response is acceptable because in those situations you can't get offended. You took a shot, you uploaded a resume, you uploaded a response, and you took a shot at something. It does not mean that you were guaranteed to get a rejection or any type of response unless they're interested in moving forward. And again, a high percentage of the time that just does not happen. So avoid those situations.
Michelle Kane (06:25):
Yeah, and I would say sometimes that is mirrored in the job search, right? You, I'm sure we've all had the experience where you might go for an interview or you pursue something and then once you're in the process you realize, okay, you guys really don't know what you're hiring for. And so I completely agree. I completely agree. And sometimes too, I found that the prospect has questions, maybe that they're not sure how to ask, and that maybe didn't come up in your first interaction. So that's also a good way to get some reaction or response is to just try to suss that out if you can. It's like, Hey, I know we talked about this. Is there anything that maybe you've thought of in the meantime as you've reviewed this proposal? Just to really try and get them to reengage on that level.
Karen Swim, APR (07:22):
And it's true ghosting when you have a meeting or if you're a job applicant and you've interviewed for a job, so you've actually taken the time, maybe you've driven somewhere, you've put on your best suit and you are there, you've done the prep work. And in both of those situations, and even if it's a virtual meeting, it still takes time to prepare for those meetings to meet with either potential employer or a potential business partner, and then you hear nothing back. So on both fronts, I would say do as much research as you can on that company and their track record from the business perspective, do they have a current agency in place? Because that's telling. Sometimes companies will use this tactic of searching for an agency just to find out if they can get a lower price or what's out there, and then they want to leverage what they hear from other agencies to try and pressure their current agency into lowering their rates.
Michelle Kane (08:33):
So
Karen Swim, APR (08:33):
If they have another agency, do not be afraid. If you decide to take this meeting to ask, we know that you have another agency in place, can you share with us why you're looking for someone new? You also want to always pre-qualify for jobs
Karen Swim, APR (08:50):
And
Karen Swim, APR (08:50):
Also for business. Are they really hiring? Are they hiring an agency or hiring an employer? What's the date that you want to see someone in place? Do you have a defined budget for this? Is the role really currently open? So you want to, for solos, we have this whole prequalification questionnaire on our site that you can make your own but ask questions before you commit anything to writing. So you want to use this face-to-face time to really get to solid answers because if they don't have a defined budget, they don't have a date when they really want you to be in place, they can articulate really why they're looking for an agency. Those are red flags,
Karen Swim, APR (09:36):
And
Karen Swim, APR (09:36):
You are very free at the end of this conversation to follow up with an email that said it was really great to meet with you after some consideration. We've decided that we're not the right agency for you. We wish you the best in your search. Exactly. You are not obligated to follow up with a written proposal just because you met with something. Trust your gut, your time is valuable, and we do not have time to waste on proposals for people that are trying to use it to pressure their current agency or just kind of licking around. They just want to know You want to find out facts, you Google some stuff. I am not your
Michelle Kane (10:18):
Girl. Yeah, I mean that is so true. And the major red flag is do you have a budget? And if it's no or if it's small, you just think, well, then I'm not accusing you, but you're not really serious about this if you don't think that you need to put an actual budget to your marketing
Karen Swim, APR (10:41):
100%.
Michelle Kane (10:42):
There's really not much farther we can go. And I know sometimes I've had prospects where they openly don't know what they don't know, and a way that I can get paid time or we can get paid four hour intellectual efforts is to have phase one. Well, phase one is I'll, I'll do the research and you'll get a strategy and then you can decide from there, so at least you'll get a product. I'm not putting strategy in my proposal. I think we are so ingrained as helpers that we need to stop ourselves before we give it away for free. So that's one way for sure you
Karen Swim, APR (11:27):
Can actually give them a strategy. We've offered up helping them to source an agency for a fee. Another thing that I do is that I'm never afraid to throw out a number because you're right, there are companies that have not done PR. They have no idea. And they'll tell you that they were like, we really don't have any idea what the budget for this is. Here's what we're looking to do. And then I'll say, well, were you thinking in X to X range? Or I might throw out a wildly big number or here, and they'll tell you because they'll be like, oh, okay, because you just are helping them frame it.
Michelle Kane (12:04):
Yes,
Karen Swim, APR (12:04):
Exactly. So I'm not saying that if they don't have a budget at all, again, this is where you have to use wisdom and be discerning. Sometimes people really are clueless. They really do want the service. They just have no knowledge and have never hired for it. So they come into it honestly saying, we really don't know because we've not done this well. Here's what you're looking at. And then you can find out how serious they are.
Michelle Kane (12:32):
Yeah, and that and of itself, I think to many of them, especially some of the small businesses that I meet with, I mean small businesses, that is a help because they don't realize what goes into a successful program or even what their parameters should be if they're trying to tough it out and do things themselves. I think it really helps them with reality because my goodness, I could think of so many industries that I am the same way. True. It's like, oh, I need a plumber to do X, Y, Z. Well, what does that cost?
Karen Swim, APR (13:09):
Yes, because it's not our area of expertise. And if it's not a service that you hire for all the time or have done before, you just really have no idea until you go looking.
Michelle Kane (13:18):
Yeah, and I would say if the ghosting is longer term and you're still interested for whatever reason and keeping touch with this person, maybe it's an industry you really want to work in. Maybe you had a really good feeling and you're just like, well, I don't know. Stuff happens. It doesn't hurt to touch base maybe every six weeks or so. If you see something interesting in the news or in the industry that could be helpful to them, shoot 'em an email just like, Hey, did you see this thinking of you? I hope everything's okay, just staying present in their world. Because I think a lot of times too, they think they want to start a program, but they're really not ready. I mean, I know we've had that happen where we're talking, we're like, yeah, you're not ready for us yet. So you just try and keep in touch.
Karen Swim, APR (14:08):
They're not ready. And something shifts internally. The person that you were in contact with actually leaves the company and you didn't know that. Sadly, I've even had contacts pass away.
Karen Swim, APR (14:24):
So
Karen Swim, APR (14:25):
Sometimes there's a legitimate reason. Well, except for death and illness, those still aren't legitimate reasons for not communicating back with someone. But you're right, you should have a tickler of follow up and just keep following up. I mean, I followed up with people for a year before something happened. It hasn't been radio silence that entire year, but it took some work.
(14:53):
Another tactic that you might use just to make sure that you're going to get a response is if you are at the point where you're going to submit a proposal, so you've met with them, you've talked to them, you're like, okay, this sounds great. I would be excited to do this work. We can actually do this work and we actually have a chance. And they're very serious. You could let them know, Hey, we have an agency policy that we deliver the proposals and we need to meet within 48 hours of delivery because that gives us the opportunity to talk through it. So you set up a next meeting. If you're not comfortable with that language, you can also just use a softer touch to say, Hey, before we deliver the proposal to make sure that we can go through it to together, let's set up a meeting now that we can go through it together because you will have questions and we want to walk you through our thinking and then address any concerns or questions that you might have. So set up a time on your calendars to actually have another face-to-face once you've given them the proposal and try to deliver that proposal as close to that meeting as possible so that there's not,
(16:12):
I also sort of safeguard against, because sometimes budgets, even when you've talked about them, when people see them on paper, they freak out.
Karen Swim, APR (16:21):
So
Karen Swim, APR (16:22):
I always tell people that I just address it right up front. Listen, we're putting together something based upon our conversation, but if the numbers are more than you thought that they were, please don't let that deter you. Let's talk about it because we can talk about the scope of work. I just put it on the table.
Michelle Kane (16:42):
Exactly.
Karen Swim, APR (16:44):
Those are a couple ways that you can minimize. Now, I will tell you, nothing is foolproof because human beings are human beings. And in spite of doing everything right, you're still going to run into those instances where someone is just not going to respond to you,
Michelle Kane (17:01):
Right? And please don't take it personally. It's never personal. It's just I think we all know how busy and overwhelming our day to day can get. It's not personal. You're just nowhere near the top of the list. It's just not a priority for them. And that in and of itself does communicate something, doesn't it? Clearly they're not ready, but it doesn't mean you can't make your presence known and just let them know that, Hey, remember when you asked me to spend time on something? Hi.
Karen Swim, APR (17:35):
I think the best piece of wisdom, you just said it. There's this book that I'm reading, the Four Agreements and one is don’t take It personally. Here's where we really protect ourselves from negative feedback, from no feedback, from ghosting, is that we do not allow other people to tell us how to feel about ourselves. They are responding in a way that is who they are.
Michelle Kane (18:05):
Yes,
Karen Swim, APR (18:06):
Their journey, part of their perception, and even their perception of who you are. So maybe in their perception of who you are, and the way that they're telling your story is that it's not going to bother you if they don't respond and you'll know that something happened and they don't want to move forward. They're making assumptions. And so when you personalize somebody else's interpretation of your story, you've now bought into that narrative and you've given over your control. This can be a game changer, I promise you, when you actively learn to just say, eh, I'm not internalizing that. I'm not taking it personally, that's their thing, and that's on them, it's not on me. And you just continue to move forward. It brings about a dead cold calmness that allows you to be so clear in your actions and to never lose your sense of self, your joy, your peace, your happiness about who you are and what you do. So just don't take it personally, but more than words, you really have to take a beat and say, that's them. That's who they are. That's how they're living their story. It has nothing to do with me. It's not like they looked at you as a human being or as an agency and said, you completely suck. I hated your shirt. You wear your hair weird. Your eye color doesn't match what I wanted it to be. You have zero experience and I'm just not even going to talk to you because
(19:48):
They're
Michelle Kane (19:49):
Just not that into us. That's all.
Karen Swim, APR (19:51):
And it's not because of you, because you know that you are smart, capable because you won't put yourself out there for something that you think you cannot do.
Michelle Kane (20:01):
So
Karen Swim, APR (20:02):
It's really not you, and it's not a personal thing, and it's their failing because I truly believe that we win when we communicate with everyone. I don't care if you got a hundred job applications, if you are getting too many job applications, change your freaking process. Be more targeted and intentional in hiring people because this does, it just gets me so riled up. I hear from too many good capable people who have gone on board five in-person interviews and then get ghosted. That is a shame. There's no excuse for it.
Michelle Kane (20:36):
There is no excuse for that at that
Karen Swim, APR (20:37):
Level.
Michelle Kane (20:38):
Absolutely not. You're
Karen Swim, APR (20:39):
Doing this. You belong in the big fat hall of shame and no one should ever want to work with you because it's such a lack of respect to humanity. You're sending a message that that person doesn't even matter enough. They spent time preparing, coming to an interview, meeting with you, not once, not twice, not three times, four times. Some people have gone on six interviews. This is torture in and of itself. And then you say nothing,
Karen Swim, APR (21:07):
Grow
Karen Swim, APR (21:08):
A pair and tell people why you're not moving forward with the process, because that's the human thing to do. And you know what? We've got to get used to having those hard conversations again. Does it feel good to tell someone, I'm sorry, we're not going to hire you. Of course it doesn't, but it feels worse to be left not understanding what happened. And we still will spill that too. When you put yourself out there with a proposal and you put everything into it, and you have been creative and you've really thought about this company, and you have given it over to the hope that you're going to get to work with them, and you're excited about that, and then they say nothing to you, radio silence. It's rude.
Michelle Kane (21:50):
And in that instance, when you're that deep, then it's probably not a place you want to be anyway, because if that's how they treat you there, I mean, that's a culture problem for sure. Yeah.
Karen Swim, APR (22:03):
Does anybody with a great company culture is not going to just completely ghost you in that way because they care about who you are as a human being.
Michelle Kane (22:14):
They just do things right. Yeah, no, no.
Karen Swim, APR (22:17):
But I will advise you. Do not retaliate as much as you may want to go on LinkedIn and blast them from here to South America, don't do it. If you feel like you need to rank and get it out, call a colleague, write a letter.
Michelle Kane (22:36):
Exactly.
Karen Swim, APR (22:36):
Write an email. But don't put in anybody in the sender. I just don't put a name in the sender. I just type it all out because sometimes you can accidentally hit send, so, but if there's no name there, it won't send. Even if you screw up, get it out. However, you need to get out that human emotion. And then again, remember it's not you. And don't let them make you buy into their version of you.
Michelle Kane (23:02):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Their dysfunction is not your problem.
Karen Swim, APR (23:06):
It is not.
Michelle Kane (23:07):
No. And really at the end of it all, even though it might be a piece of work or somewhere you want to be that you're like, oh, I really, really want to be there. I am a firm believer, even sometimes when it's lean and you're like, that is what is meant for you, will not miss you.
Karen Swim, APR (23:24):
Yeah.
Michelle Kane (23:26):
Hold on to that.
Karen Swim, APR (23:27):
If I've intentionally ghosted anybody, I'm going to apologize right now. Sometimes I've gone back and I've realized that I missed an email, looked for something, and I go back and I go, oh my gosh, I am so sorry. I apologize for not following up. So always be willing to exercise a little grace and a little forgiveness for people because people are going through a lot. But again, I mean, if you don't hear back, you definitely can follow up. Follow up and say, Hey,
Michelle Kane (24:02):
Yeah, it doesn't take long for someone to dash out two sentences and with AI now to rate it for you. Really, no excuse. I remember, I'm going way, way back in the way back machine when I was first hired at the ad agency that I worked at. My first job was to write the rejection, send out the rejection letters to everybody who didn't get it. I thought, Ooh, this feels a little cold.
Karen Swim, APR (24:29):
Yeah, worked. I mean, it didn't come easy for me. I worked in HR and I have looked for applicants in that process. That whole process is, it's a lot of work internally too. But again, there are certain things that are not ghosting. So if you get an unsolicited email from somebody selling you something, you're not required to respond to that somebody. They took a shot. You don't have to answer. And I feel the same way about portals. If you're uploading something and there's no human
Karen Swim, APR (25:00):
Interaction,
Karen Swim, APR (25:01):
Don't set yourself up with this mindset that you're going to hear something, anything, because chances are you won't take the shot if that's what you feel like you have to do. But it's one reason why I really just have never been a fan of RFPs, except when they're invited and they're very, very intentional. One of our current favorite clients, current favorite, one of our favorite clients who's a current client.
Michelle Kane (25:32):
No, that was right the first time
Karen Swim, APR (25:34):
We won the business through an RFP, but it was such a, you could tell that they were super thoughtful throughout this whole entire process and so human and so fun. And I have to tell you that this is a company whose company culture shines through at every touch point, and it has for several years of working with them. They truly are who they say they are. And it's lived in every part of the company. And I feel like, what a gift, because it should be the norm.
Michelle Kane (26:08):
Well, so here's the thing about that, right? Clearly there is a successful company, which just goes to show we are all capable of doing the right thing and doing right by each other. And let's try and elevate our world by living by that a little more. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort to do it. So there you have it. There you have it. Wow. Thanks for spending this time with us today. We hope you got something out of this. If you did, please do share this around. Go over and hit us up on solo pro.com. We'd love to hear ideas for topics you want us to talk about, and please do review our podcast wherever you listen to it. We'd love for that as well so that more people can hear the good news we have to share with you. And until next time, thanks for listening to That Solo Life.