The Work of Diversity, A Conversation with Anetra Henry

That Solo Life, Episode 254 - The Work of Diversity, A Conversation with Anetra Henry

Michelle Kane [00:03.545]-[01:06.983]: Thank you for joining us for this episode of That Solo Life, the podcast for PR pros and marketers who work for themselves. People like me, Michelle Kane with Voice Matters, and as always, Karen Swim of Solo PR Pro. And today we are thrilled to have a guest with us. We are thrilled to have Anitra Henry join us. She is not your typical public relations and marketing professional, so we love that. She's a passionate storyteller and strategic messaging guru. She is the Senior Director of Strategic Initiatives at the Institute for Public Relations, where she continues to make waves with her expertise and contributions to research, and that's, but wait, there's more. She's a sought-after speaker at industry conferences and events and a tireless advocate for diversity and inclusion, working hard to recreate opportunities for underrepresented voices and championing initiatives that foster inclusivity, which is what we are all about. So we are so grateful to have you with us today, Anitra. Welcome.

Anetra Henry [01:06.983]-[01:12.427]: Thank you. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Michelle, for having me. I'm excited to be here with you both.

Karen Swim, APR [01:13.332]-[01:37.303]: We are so excited that you could join us here today, Anitra. Oh, my gosh. Huge fan of yours since a mutual colleague introduced us. And we have always loved the Institute of Public Relations. And so it's just so wonderful to have you personally, your expertise, your passion, and to gain some insights from you.

Anetra Henry [01:38.812]-[02:04.854]: Awesome. Well, thank you again. I'm excited to share and to tell the story of my most recent journey into research for PR professionals and communications professionals and diversity, equity and inclusion professionals as well. I think this research is really important to help build the bridge and understand how to work together.

Michelle Kane [02:07.265]-[02:21.259]: Love that. Yeah, it's so very true. So let's kick off with your study. You have this Collaborators for Change study. You know, what was the spark for this research?

Anetra Henry [02:21.259]-[04:08.112]: The spark for this research actually is those that are in the Institute for Public Relations. So within the Institute, we have centers and commissions of excellence, and they each focus on their individual topic. And one of those centers that I happen to serve on is the Center for Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. The two chairs, the co-chairs of that center at the time, which were Dr. Natalie Tindall and Emily K. Graham, were leading a conversation, we had these roundtables, And we were talking about being curious how communications, how the CCOs and diversity, equity, inclusion executives work together. What did they think? were the role of the CD. Oh, particularly in terms of crisis that involve things that a CDO would cover. Is it just that the CDO formulates the communications that go out externally and perhaps internally? during those crises or was there more to that relationship? So out of that conversation came the opportunity to produce a study. And we decided that we needed both qualitative and quantitative methods to be able to appropriately tell the study and the story of what the relationship looks like. That's how I began this journey. And our CEOs said, Anitra, you should be the one to lead this. And the rest is on paper in history now.

Karen Swim, APR [04:08.112]-[04:20.162]: I love it. What, I mean, you know, that population is not all that easy to get to. So what obstacles did you face in conducting this study?

Anetra Henry [04:21.651]-[09:03.861]: Well, luckily for me, regarding chief communications officers and the communications executives that I had an opportunity to speak with, the CCOs are already a part. They serve on our board here at IPR. So they were pretty easy to recruit and get to raise their hand and to tell their side of the story. However, chief diversity officers were a little bit more difficult to be able to recruit. So through some contacts at the Diversity Action Alliance, which is led by the incomparable Carmella Glover, and some of our CCOs, they helped to recruit some of the participants on the CDO side. But quite honestly, I spent a lot of time out on LinkedIn, reaching out, cold calling CDOs and asking them to participate. And if we got in our time machine and go back a little bit, this study was conducted between March and August of 2023. That's when I did all of the interviews. So if you think back to what was going on at that time, it seemed like every week there was something coming out that CDOs or diversity executives would feel targeted. there were the Supreme Court rulings later on in the summer as we got closer to finishing up the study. But in between there, there were states that were introducing legislation that would take place mostly this year or pending legislation that was coming that was targeting this role in the work of diversity, equity, inclusion. And so what I saw in the beginning, planned to do focus groups for both the communications and the diversity executives. And in the beginning, I was able to complete a few of those focus groups with CDOs. However, as this news kept coming out week after week after week, the CDOs became increasingly just apprehensive about participating at that level, being in a room with other CDOs. And so many of them either didn't want to participate, but the ones that did, that felt like this was important work and they had something to share, needed another layer of anonymity. And so I had to begin to offer individual interviews to be able to capture their stories and what they had to share to be able to include in this report. And that was a huge challenge to overcome. We really wanted to get this report out sooner, but we wanted it to be right. I wanted it to be a complete story. I wanted it to tell their stories, you know, their sides of what was going on, what they're experiencing, how they're really working with the chief communications officer. What does that relationship really look like? How do their teams integrate? Are they working places where they feel safe and psychologically safe? A lot of times CDOs are expected to be the ones to provide the psychological safety, but are they receiving psychological safety while doing this work? So yeah, it became harder to recruit. It became difficult at times to listen to the stories as we got closer to that legislation being enacted and just the onslaught of constant negative news that was coming out about the future of initiatives surrounding diversity, equity, inclusion. And that was from both sides. It really was from both sides. It wasn't just diversity officers that were sharing their broken heart stories. It was the chief communications officers as well who had basically built these strong relationships with their diversity partners and being very concerned about, am I about to lose my partner because there's legislation coming down the pipe that's going to target this work? So, yeah. It was a great study, but it definitely took some fortitude and some strength to be able to carry it through.

Michelle Kane [09:03.861]-[09:35.013]: Yeah, I can only imagine. And just to have something, to have the landscape changing under your feet as you're conducting the study, I mean, certainly the story that you were, you know, the stories you were thinking you might end up with, undoubtedly changed as you went along, what would you say would be a couple of the main key takeaways of that experience?

Anetra Henry [09:35.013]-[14:49.374]: From the study itself, you know, there's several key takeaways that are listed, and I think from the CDO perspective, the main one that I want people to make sure that they understand is that in this new newer phase that we're going into that isn't really new, where there's this force that's trying to rebrand diversity, equity, inclusion as didn't earn it, right? Every one of those CDOs had tons of experience, and they had been doing this work even before they had been tapped to receive the title and the compensation. to do it. And I feel like that was a huge takeaway to point out, particularly with the backlash that has been coming on and the attempts to rebrand. Some of the other key takeaways was just how much the diversity officers and communications officers actually communicate with each other about what's best for the organization. And how sometimes even though they use terms like we're symbiotic, we're embedded, we have a great relationship. And most of them talked about how their relationships with each other were great. However, there are times when that relationship gets a little contingent. And after George Floyd, post-George Floyd, we saw, I think we all saw in the mainstream, a shift for corporations, agencies, the business world, if you will, to communicate and really go for telling the story of how they're doing a good job regarding diversity, equity, inclusion. And there is something called diversity, equity, inclusion fatigue. And most times when you hear that term, you think of it from a CDO's perspective, or those that are on the front line doing the work. But from the other side, people get lost in their mind. Oh, DEI isn't for me. They're no longer speaking to me. I'm excluded from this. And so Internally, what we saw or what came out of this study is how many times communications officers felt like their diversity counterparts were asking too much to communicate a story around diversity, equity, and inclusion. And they're using, they basically have the feedback from whether it's internal partners or stakeholders or external stakeholders. Like they're no longer interested in hearing about these stories and how to communicate that and how to correct it. Because ultimately you can tell all the wonderful stories about what your organization is doing to help build a more inclusive community. for their key stakeholders, but ultimately if nobody's reading it, is it doing any good? Is it going to land with the people it needs to land with? Is it going to achieve the goal that you have in place? One of the major takeaways for me was we did, I did have the opportunity to interview a couple of sets of chief communications officers and chief diversity officers from the same organization. because I was curious if they were going to tell me the same thing. And there was a set that I got an opportunity to interview, and this was something that they each talked about. And they decided to come up with a way to perform an audit of all of their communications and to be able to say, OK, we're getting closer to when we need to communicate internally about the diversity, equity, and inclusion goals that we are creating, that we are achieving, and externally, and be able to use research, that research, and numbers to be able to say, this is the best way for us to proceed forward without the diversity team feeling like, oh, you guys just don't want to tell the story more. You're tired of telling our story. And that may not be true, right? it can feel that way, but until you have the type of communication that is direct and honest and lets agree on a path forward, then yeah, you're gonna feel whatever it is that you feel about it, but what is true? And so I loved that key takeaway from the study is how this particular pair decided to work together to solve the issue for their organization.

Karen Swim, APR [14:49.374]-[15:25.760]: You had such a great window into the inner workings of how diversity and communication officers work together within organizations. So I'm sure, and because you're so deeply embedded in this work and have a passion and an expertise around it, Did this give you insights into what's working? And I think more importantly, where we're failing and what recommendations, if you could put the recommendations in place, what would you change so that we're more effective?

Anetra Henry [15:25.760]-[20:22.012]: There are a few things I would change. First and foremost, what became clear to me through this study is diversity executives need to report to the chief executive officer. Sitting in human resources, having a reporting structure that has the title of chief but isn't being treated like the chief is problematic. It's hugely problematic. So that's the first recommendation that I would make. Another recommendation, and they're not, please don't take this like I'm saying, this is the top recommendation, this is the second thing I would do. These all things need to be done simultaneously, and each organization needs to decide where they are with this, with my recommendations. The next one would be that the organization really needs to have a very clear definition of what diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, belonging, look like, what the definition is for their organization. One of the things that came out of this study is there's definitely been way more progress on gender parity than there has been on racial, along racial lines. And so, how are you defining this? How is it prioritized? Where is it prioritized within your organization? Because there was a huge, like we just talked about, there was post-George Floyd, for about two and a half years, there was this total focus and emphasis on we're going to do better. We are committed here. And then the fatigue set in and people started having complaints. I'm being left out of this. And again, this is not the purpose of diversity, equity, and inclusion is to leave anyone out. Diversity, equity, and inclusion is for everyone. When I speak, like recently I had an opportunity to speak to the American Marketing Association about Um diversity and inclusion and marketing and ethics and those kinds of things and I just shared with them it's selfishly, you know We hear a lot about white men older white men being left out of this conversation Selfishly, I need white men at the table because by and large they have been the ones that have opened doors for me I don't want to kick them off the table. I want the table to be expanded. We need more voices so Deciding what the definition is clearly defined and easily accessible for your internal and external stakeholders to know what it is. Also, stop the performative stuff. Again, we saw this year, in the two and a half years post-George Floyd, we saw so much around Pride, you know, it's June, so it is Pride month, and we've got Juneteenth coming up next week. And we saw all of these efforts to communicate and to market about our organizations and how we're fair and how we're this and how we're that. And then, you know, Black History Month rolled around this year, and what are we reading? so many pieces about the quietest Black history month. Where did it all go? Where did our allies truly go? And this research revealed that one of the biggest allies for diversity executives is the chief communication officer because they help them to tell that story of what is working, what isn't working, how it's working, how that impact is important on the stakeholders in the future of the business. So, those are some of the recommendations that I would have. It is okay to stop doing diversity initiatives that no longer work, but you must communicate properly about it. Don't just stop it and say, okay, well, you know, everybody else is stopping, so we're going to stop. right, and not address why this is no longer working for your organization, how you're going to retool, how you're going to refit, and communicating if you're still committed to that part of the overall organization's definition of diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, and belonging. So those will be my recommendations for organizations.

Karen Swim, APR [20:22.770]-[22:02.167]: I think those are really insightful. You know, one of the biggest issues that I see, and it, and I don't know how to fix this, which in my mind is why, you know, I admire the people that are called to this work, because it's, It's tough and human nature does not like to change. It's why some people don't want to do therapy because you know that you have an issue, you want to fix it, but the work of getting there is so painful and it forces you to address pain within yourself. And at the crux of DEI is people are having the status quo challenge. They're having everything that they believed challenged, and that hurts. It's hard. It's painful to make that mind shift change and to start to look at a different perspective. Some people, thankfully, get it. And I think it's because they've had exposure through their lives. They've been more amenable to it. They were raised to be allies. They get it. They understand. And so that shift wasn't as painful for them. But for the people who are really being confronted with this for maybe the first time and called to account for it, they're in it for a minute, but then the first opportunity that they have to back out of it, they're like, I don't want any parts of it. And they have all kinds of excuses about why they can't continue the work. And I don't have the answer to that. I just, I recognize it. I see it. I don't have a good answer for it.

Anetra Henry [22:02.167]-[25:30.082]: I don't necessarily have the answer for it either. But I will tell you that the more empathy that one can have. And it starts with empathy for yourself. I think we largely live in a society where we are, our biggest fear each day is that someone's going to hurt our feelings, you know. We are blessed to some degree in that way. And I'm not saying, and that's not to minimize the pain of people out there, because there's so many great nonprofit organizations that are targeting real issues in our society, like hunger, food insecurity, those kinds of things. But largely, the people that I serve through IPR, the biggest issue that they face each day is somebody going to hurt their family. The work when you are first confronted with diversity equity and inclusion is going to hurt your feelings because it's going to point out to you Where you are not being empathetic to someone who just wants the same things that you want to They want to do good work they want to be loved and they want to love and They want to be successful. However, they define success and Our bias keeps us from seeing that person as equal to us. So it's okay to have your feelings hurt. I think that's the first thing people need to realize. You are not owed perfect days and sunshine and rainbows every single day. Sometimes the biggest lessons that we learn is through pain. and in the through, right? Emphasis on the through. So feel the pain and have empathy for yourself and have empathy for others. And if you start to see people, the first thing isn't to the full acceptance, right? And I think that sometimes that message around diversity, equity, inclusion, Whether people are saying that or not, that is what someone who's confronted with it for the first time, like you spoke about, Karen, feels. I'm supposed to get to, I have to fully accept this when I have been, I have 20, 30, 40, 50 plus years of experience feeling like and being taught and being socialized that this person who is different from me in some shape, form, or fashion is not equal to me. We're not asking you to immediately get to full acceptance. The first step is to understand they want the same things that you want. And your cis white, you know, those, the norm that we exalt in America, We're not saying anything is wrong with your skin suit or how you experience life. What we're saying is I want to experience life that way too. Can you please stop putting roadblocks in my way? That's it.

Michelle Kane [25:30.082]-[26:41.723]: Yeah, I think one of the key hurdles to surpass is the defensiveness of many of the people who enjoy the norm, right? And it's like, come on, the more you know, the more you learn. I mean, the things I've learned, you know, what it took, it took the watchers to teach people like me about the Tulsa massacre. I mean, that's insane. Why don't we know that? And when you know better, you do better. And I think it's, I'm not sure how you get past the people that immediately get their back up and, well, what do you mean everything I am is right? No, no one's saying that. Or what we see in schools about, we don't want to teach children to feel bad about themselves. No one's saying that. But if you do have empathy and are able to walk in someone else's shoes in your mind, yes, you are not going to feel great about certain things. And that's OK. You know, I don't know if that's a just part of our top-level fear-based culture or what?

Anetra Henry [26:41.723]-[27:38.684]: I think people forget that pain is a good sign. It is your first indication that something is wrong and something needs to change. Right? If you have an ache in your tooth, that's the first sign something's wrong and you need to go get it taken care of. I think that what has been interpreted incorrectly about this work is that what is being asked of the norm is to remain in pain. And we're not asking that. Not asking you to remain in pain. I don't like pain the same way you don't like pain. So I want you to understand that the lesson of pain is something needs to change. And the first thing that can change is having these conversations.

Michelle Kane [27:38.684]-[27:49.366]: Yeah. I agree. And how awesome it can be when we do truly include everyone at the same level. How much stronger we all are.
Karen Swim, APR [27:52.583]-[28:28.091]: This is not your typical data study. I do a lot of data studies. And there's excitement about them. There's connection to it. But this is deeply, it hits home in so many ways and deeply personal because you are dealing with people that are doing work that has such a highly emotional component to it. And as you noted, so many are psychologically impacted. I'd love to know how doing this research personally impacted you.

Anetra Henry [28:28.091]-[34:01.177]: That's a great question. So for me, there's a lot of pride around being able to lead this study. And because I'm so connected to the work and I lead a lot of the diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives for the Institute for Public Relations. And so I see myself to some degree in the work, but here's the other piece. As a researcher, I had to take myself out of it. And this wasn't about me. This was about these, the study participants' stories, their experiences. And my job was to compile those and tell their stories. However, There were several of these times and interviews that afterwards, it was really difficult. We would stop recording and I would just check in on my study participant. Like, okay, we're done with the interview. I'm done recording this. I want to check in with you. How are you really doing? And the things that I heard and saw because we conducted them over Zoom, it really impacted me. And I am an empathetic person. And so it was difficult to see people in pain. It was difficult to witness people in fear for their jobs, because what we've already discussed, legislation coming out, uncertainty around really and truly how the organization is going to shift to fit this if testing whether or not the organization is truly committed to diversity, equity, inclusion, because so many made that outward commitment within the last now four years. But there were also many times when people said, you know what, I'm feeling strong because my organization has had this embedded since its founding. I don't feel that I'm unsafe. I am worried about my counterparts at other organizations. So for me personally, it became tough. There were some very sobering moments in this study. One of them was I was having an interview with a chief communications officer that's in a state that the attorney general sent a letter to their organization And that person was looking at the letter from the Attorney General right before we had our interview. And that particular letter from the Attorney General was one of those that was like, hey, your diversity, equity, inclusion initiatives could result in a lawsuit based on the Supreme Court ruling. And that particular study participant had a very close relationship with their chief diversity officer. And to witness that person, to see the fear in that participant's face around, I might be losing, I've worked so hard in conjunction with this person. Not only to see our co-led work potentially go down the drain, but I'm gonna lose a great colleague and potentially a great friend. And I don't know, where they're going to go next, how they're going to be, how they're going to care for their families. So that became really difficult to go through those interviews and have so many share really personal pain about and their fears about what's next for them. It's a very scary time to come forward and speak about what was going on. So personally, for me, there were times that after an interview, I would have to reach out and say, you guys, this is what happened in the interview. I need a minute. I need to take some time away from the computer, away from everything, and regroup. So it was a great and important study to conduct, but it was also one that was difficult because at the end of the day, I knew that there wasn't anything I could do other than to offer an ear. You know, I couldn't fix it. I couldn't go to the Supreme Court and say, you guys made a mistake. I couldn't go to those attorney generals and be like, how dare you? Do you realize the impact that you're about to have and that you are currently having on all these people's lives? But yeah, you just become an ear and a safe space for people to tell their fears And you absorb that, and then you go do what you do to release it.

Michelle Kane [34:01.177]-[34:30.258]: And it's so true. I mean, you can't help but be impacted, right? Especially in the thick of it. And so often these decisions, you know, the impact of the one-on-one person is not taken into account. given all the information that you've collected and all these data points and the study, what do you see is ahead for CDOs in general?

Anetra Henry [34:30.258]-[37:29.877]: Ultimately, you know, to see what's ahead, we have to look at what's behind, right? And what's behind us There has been a history of people attacking whatever we call diversity that we're now calling it diversity, equity, inclusion, right? But before this, it was affirmative action. And before this, it was separate women's rights and all of those kinds of different things. And there's always been the same attacks fear, attempts to legislate, attempts to change, and yet this work perseveres. And so when I look at the history of how this plays out, regardless of what we call it, what I think is ahead is continuing the work. I do think it will get a new name, which I'm not a fan of. Even as a marketer, I would hate to rebrand diversity, equity, inclusion. I think we need to do a better job of defining it. But I don't necessarily want to. But I do think what's ahead is a rebranding of the work, more clear communication about what it is and what it is not. And I think the work will continue because the next generation is not tolerating what we have put up with up until this point. And they're going to see it as just being human. And that's it. And we have to look at this through a lens of I'm staring down retirement, and I've got more working days behind me than in front of me. And so when I think about the next generation and how this works for them, it's, they're not going to tolerate the same things that I've tolerated in my work life up until this point, until I got to the place of being able to do what I love to do. They expect to be able to do what they love to do, and they don't see their colleague as less than them. So I think the work will continue. I think it will be rebranded. I think it will become better defined. And I think it will make our society better. And the vehicle for which that will happen will be our organizations, whether they are nonprofit, for-profit, agency, corporation, solopreneurs, however it is, it will continue because we're all impacted, even if you're fighting it, you're being impacted by this work.

Karen Swim, APR [37:29.877]-[38:16.974]: Yeah, I wish everyone understood that equity and inclusion benefits every single human being. And people don't often realize that there's a lot of data out there to support, you know, companies sometimes cut costs and they immediately eliminate these jobs. However, equity and inclusion really has a positive impact on your bottom line. I mean, so if one group is winning, we're all winning. And if people could just embrace that, if for no other reason, you realize that there's something in it for you, that it's not about an other group, but it's about benefiting you too, I think that we could see more progress and acceptance.

Anetra Henry [38:16.974]-[40:35.802]: Absolutely. And I think we will. There is an end game to politicizing diversity, equity, and inclusion, and it will be tested at the polls in a few months. But ultimately, the work will continue because we're a capitalistic society, and we like money. And you have to, you know, what is seen as other has a lot of money that they have to spend. And if you take away these initiatives and take these steps back and lose the historical information and data that you have around how to treat, how to connect. And this is the marketer speaking in me. Speaking for me. Well, if you lose that focus if you remove people from the table that Understand the nuance of a particular Segment of society and you go out here with whatever it is your bias and what you think is correct There will be a correction and it will be at the cash register or the shopping cart So true And so if for no other reason, the work will continue because American society is in love with money. And I'm not going to spend my money where I don't feel valued, where I don't feel seen. And neither are these younger people. They are finding what we would consider minuscule ways or reasons to disqualify shopping and spending with particular organization, from things that are not necessarily diversity, equity, inclusion in terms of gender and race, but environmental, for being hypocritical, for the performative things that I spoke about earlier. We saw that happen post-George Floyd, where people were like, oh, we're so committed. And they're like, really? Here's your board of directors. Show me where you're committed.

Karen Swim, APR [40:37.547]-[41:04.559]: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Thank God for the younger generation, because they really they're coming up with a whole different mindset. And we welcome that. We welcome the changes that they're ushering in and the things that they won't stand for. I would love to see this study repeated. Are there any plans to make this a longitudinal study so that we have data sets to compare? Or was this a one time study?
Anetra Henry [41:06.747]-[42:49.267]: Karen, I would love to see this study repeated as well. We have not had that conversation quite yet, what's going to come next from this study, but I would love to see the work continue and the examination of this to continue. One way that, particularly for this study, meaning the relationship between the chief communications officer and the chief diversity officer, One way that we have discussed potentially spinoffs of the study is the relationship between the chief communications officer, since that's who IPR largely serves, and other C-suite executives. What is the relationship with the chief marketing officer, the chief technical officer, or largely the chief financial officer, since they say communications people don't understand profit and loss. which isn't correct, right? But that's the thing that they say about communications and PR professionals is we're not great with numbers. Um, but that isn't true. So, uh, we have, right, absolutely. We have discussed, uh, those types of spinoffs of this study. Um, but specifically the chief, the relationship between the chief diversity officer and the chief communications officer, I would love to see it done. I don't think it's something that needs to be done every single year. Um, maybe every two, uh, two years or so. Um, But yeah, all we need is some sponsors and we can get it done.

Michelle Kane [42:49.267]-[43:17.686]: There we go. Well, if you want to reach Anitra, you can find her on LinkedIn at Anitra Henry, as well as Instagram at Anitra. This has been a treasure trove of time together. We thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, for sharing that, for doing this study, for sharing it with us. And it's, it's certainly something that all of us and our fellow PR pros need to keep top of mind and help move the work along. That's for sure.

Karen Swim, APR [43:19.168]-[44:22.297]: I agree. I'm so thankful for you sharing your wisdom, your passion, your insights, your, you know, this is inspiring. And it really illuminates the role that communicators can play in this work and partnering with CDOs. I mean, I Reading the study and after doing this, it saddens me that so often in my work, I never even get to talk to the CDOs. I'm serving companies, but there's these silos. definitely, you know, so I advocate for diversity, equity, inclusion in communications. I ensure that we are being inclusive in the way that we talk to our publics. But the CDO is never part of those discussions, which is unfortunate. And I think that that's something that needs to change as well. So let's all carry that torch forward and help to be an ally to the people that really are doing this work. Yes, absolutely.

Michelle Kane [44:22.812]-[44:52.437]: For sure. Well, to our listeners, thank you for joining us for this episode. And another huge thank you to you, Anitra, for joining us. And as you're listening to this, if you find it valuable, which we're certain you do, please do share it around. Give us some reviews. That would be wonderful. And always check out soloprpro.com to see the latest for independent workers. And until next time, thanks for listening to That Solo Life.