AI Bias, Neutrogena, and the Cost of Speaking Up

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MICHELLE KANE:
Hey, Karen, quick thought experiment.

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Sadly, this is probably going to be an easy
one.

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So someone shows the same work,
presents with the same skills,

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same disclosure that AI helped.

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But one version of this work has a man's name
on it,

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and the other one has a woman's name.

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Which one gets asked,
did you actually do this yourself?

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Oh wow. I can skip the experiment because
I've lived this as I know you have.

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But today we actually have some research that
puts some numbers on this.

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Welcome back to that Solo Life,
the podcast for public relations and

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communication pros who work for themselves,
like me.

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Karen Swim, president of solo PR Pro and...

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MICHELLE KANE:
I am Michelle Kane, the principal of Voice
Matters.

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And fair warning, parts of this are probably
going to make you a little angry.

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And gosh, what doesn't these days. So we're
sorry we're adding to the pile, but this is

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a, this is an important topic and we're going
to save it in the second half,

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because then we're going to talk about what
we can actually do about it.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
There you go. Because anger without a plan
just keeps us up at night.

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And no one wants that.

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No. So okay, I did a TikTok on this actually,

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because it caught me by surprise,
but Gini Dietrich wrote about AI and gender

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bias on the Spin Sucks blog just last month.

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And the headline is when men use AI,
they're resourceful,

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and when women use AI,
they're cheating.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Which I read and immediately thought,
well, of course. But then I took a beat and

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said, all right, let's find out if that's,
you know,

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if my reaction is truth,
right?

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's good because someone
actually has measured this.

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So it's not just a feeling that we all have,
but it's something that is really backed by

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some stats. So Lean In surveyed about 1000
Americans about 1000,

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I think the spring and nearly 3 in 10 women
said that they worry they'll be seen as

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cheating if they use AI at work.

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But for men it was closer to 2 in 10.

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MICHELLE KANE:
So of course women are more nervous about it
because don't we all,

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not just women, but you know,
minorities as well have to prove it more,

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work harder, work smarter than our gender
counterparts.

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So so the easy response would be,
okay, so it's a confidence thing.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. Well, that's an easy response.

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But there was this researcher in the UK and
she ran an experiment on this.

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So she gave a thousand people the same
resume,

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same skills, same experience.

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And every reviewer was told that AI helped to
write it.

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The only thing that she changed was the name.

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So it was either Emily or James.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Okay, I could see where this is

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going. I hope I'm wrong.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
You're not wrong. So James got a 97% approval
rating.

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Emily was rated strong by 76%,
so I know reviewers were more than a fifth

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more likely to question whether Emily could
be trusted,

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and doubts about her competence were twice as
high.

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And I mean, here are the comments that just
are super hard to shake on Emily's.

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Someone wrote that she can't even write a
resume herself.

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On James resume, it said,
oh, he just needed a little bit of help

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putting it together.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Of course, because he's already far superior.

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And, you know, same document.

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One of them just needed a little help.

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And the other one's just a fraud because,
you know.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. And, and then the researchers line is
that when men use AI,

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we question their effort.

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And when women use it,
we question their integrity.

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Oh that hurts. So effort is a speed bump and
integrity is a verdict.

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And now that was a resume experiment,
right?

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Not an office. But it does line up with what
Harvard is finding about software engineers,

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where identical AI assistant work got lower
competence ratings when the engineer was a

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woman and the women saw it coming.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Of course we're not. We're not imagining
things.

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You know, we're not gaslighting ourselves.

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We're predicting it. Right?

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So what do you do if you're smart,
you protect yourself.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. You use it less or you use it quietly.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Or and I mean, yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE:
I'll change my name to Michael.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. And I just, I, I think that that's sad
because.

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MICHELLE KANE:
It really is.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
It, it shouldn't be there.

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So Harvard also just updated a big review of
this.

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And they, you know, it was more than 100
countries and hundreds of thousands of

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people. And it's about 48% of men using
generative AI against 39% of women.

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So the gap has shrunk since the early days,
but it's been stuck right around there.

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And Lean In found that men who use AI at work
are more likely to have been praised for it,

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and more likely to have had a manager
encourage them to do it.

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MICHELLE KANE:
So of course, he gets the high five,
she gets the raised eyebrow,

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and then everyone wonders why women in the
workplace are more cautious than ever.

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Yeah, yeah.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
I mean, Gini makes a point about this that
especially,

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you know, poignant for our profession.

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Yeah. If a comms team looks at its own survey
and sees low AI use,

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leadership concludes people aren't adopting
it.

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But the real story might be that people are
using it every day and just not saying so,

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because saying so costs some of them more
than others.

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And, you know, listen,
we know that PR is a women dominated

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profession. So I think that that was a really
smart and insightful reflection from Gini.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Oh, totally. Totally. So,
you know, what we really think is a

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technology issue is way more so a trust
issue.

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You know who I mean? And,
you know, if you're in a workplace and

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especially, you know,
working for ourselves,

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ourselves, but if you're in an agency,
you know,

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you don't know, you can't fully trust all of
your colleagues,

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unfortunately, or trust the biased
perceptions of management,

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no matter how well meaning they may be.

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You know, so much of this has been ingrained
in us over the decades.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah, I agree. And I mean,
when we talk about,

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you know, the gender bias,
it's not just relegated to I and I,

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I want to, I want to handle this,
this next kind of example tenderly,

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because it does involve a real person who
recently passed away.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah. Yeah. So Hayden Panettiere,
I butchered her name.

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So sorry. Hayden. She worked with Neutrogena
for about a decade.

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And yeah, this this story makes my blood
boil.

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So she was with them from 2005 to 2015.

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In 2026. This year, she she released a memoir
and she was also on,

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I think, Jay Jay Shetty's podcast,
just this May.

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And she said that the company,
Neutrogena ended their partnership after she

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talked publicly about her postpartum
depression.

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That was on a talk show in 2015,
I think.

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And she said she was,
you know, it was the last thing that she ever

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thought about being let go over,
you know, being honest about her experience

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as a woman. So, you know,
and that's her account.

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And sadly, we don't doubt it.

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So the fact that she's revealing her truth,
and I'm certain what was probably foremost in

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her mind was hoping that her experience could
help the women listening to her interview or

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reading her book. So thank you, Hayden, for
that legacy because

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that will continue.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE:
To help women.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
And, you know, sadly,
after her passing, the story resurfaced,

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of course. And oh my gosh,
there was such a big backlash against

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Neutrogena. And so the company finally put
out a statement,

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okay, we won't go there,
but oh my gosh, get it together people.

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So and they said, you know,
their statement was basically that they

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understood that it made her feel unsupported
during a very difficult time and that it was

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investing in community health support,
including postpartum care.

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But it never really addressed why the
partnership ended.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Right. And look, you know,
we're not here to put words in anyone's mouth

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at that company. We can't know,
you know, what was in anyone's mind.

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Then we can have thoughts.

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But just what stays with with us is,
is that,

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you know, the shape of her story,
right at its essence.

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And gosh, aren't we seeing this every day a
woman tells the truth about something hard

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that happens not just to her,
but a lot of other women And you know,

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by her account. And then what follows is a
professional price.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
And yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE:
We see this far too many times,
not just in a simple resume experiment.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Exactly, exactly. So,
you know, the these two examples are

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different stakes. And I don't want to,
you know,

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kind of flatten them into the same thing.

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But the question underneath is similar.

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What is a woman allowed to be seen doing and
still be treated as someone who's

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good at her job?

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MICHELLE KANE:
Right. Emily just used a tool that so many of
her coworkers and colleagues are using.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE:
All Hayden did was tell her truth.

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And, you know, with both stories,
you've got some other entity,

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some other person deciding whether or not her
lived experience is

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credible. What are we doing?

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
I mean, and that's why so many women choose
quiet,

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but quiet has a cost,
right?

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Because when everybody stays silent, the data
says that the problem is

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smaller than it is.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Right? Right. And, you know,
just to kind of bring this home,

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we're going to widen the lens,
right? It's like, this isn't just about one

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brand. It isn't just about one resume

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experiment. Right?

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Right. Yeah. It's not pay scales report this
year,

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built on salary data from more than 100,000
American workers showed.

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And, you know, I'm so tired of hearing this
disparity,

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but women make $0.82 for every dollar men
make.

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And that's actually a step back from the
$0.83 it was last year.

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So it's about $14,000 a year in median pay.

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MICHELLE KANE:
So great. I'm so excited.

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Yeah. And you know, the thing that gets me is
that it doesn't fix itself with more degrees

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or more years of experience.

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And certainly when we pay our bills,
we don't get to take that discount.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
No, we do not. I mean,
but look, it gets worse.

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So women that are 45 and older,
they're at $0.71.

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Women executives, $0.69.

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And and the gap shows up at every education
level,

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including women with master's degrees and
MBAs.

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So this is not a go get another credential
problem.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Right, right. And as we said,
you know, comms is,

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you know, widely considered a you know,
it's a profession that's comprised of two

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thirds women. So you would hope we wouldn't
have that problem.

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But of course we do because we are living in
the USA.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. I mean, in comms it's you know,
there was the last survey that we could find

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on this was a survey from 2023.

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And they found that women communicators earn
about 92% to the man's dollar and base salary

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and the gap in bonuses was a lot bigger.

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It was around a third.

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So even in a field that's dominated by women,

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this pattern of disparity between the genders
still holds.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Okay, we promised that we'd bring this around
and have some good news.

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Tell me there's good news.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
There is. There is. So.

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But PayScale found that nine states.

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So this is this is good.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Here we go.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
That have pay transparency laws.

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And these are places like California,
New York,

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Illinois, Maryland. They close the gap when
you compare similar work.

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So when the numbers are visible and someone's
paying attention attention,

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it can move.

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MICHELLE KANE:
Right, right. Which, which brings it around
to us as solos,

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right? Because we're solos.

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We are our HR department.

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You know, we don't have anyone official
lording over us in that way.

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There's no salary band.

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There's, you know, we set our own rates.

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE:
So I think with that,
we can try and get out of our own way.

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We've talked about valuing our worth a lot.

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And yeah, we try not to gender bias

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ourselves, right?

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KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. I mean, it cuts both ways,
right?

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Because you're right. Nobody can hand us a
lower offer.

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We write the proposal,
but nobody's auditing our pricing either.

217
00:14:05,190 --> 00:14:06,830
So clients will test it.

218
00:14:06,830 --> 00:14:12,070
And so a woman consultant can quote a fee
with total confidence and still get can you

219
00:14:12,070 --> 00:14:16,790
do it for less? And did you really write this
yourself in the same week?

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MICHELLE KANE:
It's fabulous. Or even better,
like, oh, we can do this on chat and you can

221
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:23,910
just put it out there.

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I'm like, no, anyway. But yeah,
and honestly,

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I think a lot of us do quietly discount or
quietly use AI and never mention it because

224
00:14:32,070 --> 00:14:34,990
it feels safer. You know,
they're being questioned.

225
00:14:34,990 --> 00:14:38,670
And I know we've talked about this,
just the region I live,

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00:14:38,910 --> 00:14:43,190
I, I know for a fact and have confirmed this
with other peers,

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00:14:43,510 --> 00:14:46,930
even though there is money out there,
sometimes the threshold is,

228
00:14:46,930 --> 00:14:49,490
oh, we're not paying that for that. Oh,
really? Because you're charging this for

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00:14:49,490 --> 00:14:52,210
this. But yeah, mama's got bills to

230
00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:53,450
pay. So. All right.

231
00:14:53,890 --> 00:14:58,130
KAREN SWIM, APR:
I know, I mean, I remember there,
there was a FreshBooks used to measure this

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too. And they found that the gender pay gap
persisted even when you were self-employed,

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which is really sad. And,
you know, listen, I get it that,

234
00:15:10,250 --> 00:15:14,090
you know, we, we sometimes have to protect
ourselves,

235
00:15:14,090 --> 00:15:17,170
right? Yeah. So nobody should feel guilty for
that.

236
00:15:17,610 --> 00:15:24,570
But I also don't believe that quiet is where
we want to end up because quiet is how our

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00:15:24,570 --> 00:15:27,370
skill stops being meaningful.

238
00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:30,610
MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah, yeah. So true, so true.

239
00:15:30,650 --> 00:15:33,850
Okay. So because there's always going to be
the counter,

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00:15:33,890 --> 00:15:35,170
the counterpoint, right?

241
00:15:35,170 --> 00:15:39,770
So let's. Let's battle the pushback,
shall we?

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00:15:39,890 --> 00:15:41,450
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah, go for it.

243
00:15:41,450 --> 00:15:45,330
MICHELLE KANE:
Okay. Objection one. This feels overblown.

244
00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:48,860
I've never been treated differently and I use
AI openly with no

245
00:15:48,860 --> 00:15:51,780
problem. That's what you think.

246
00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:54,820
KAREN SWIM, APR:
I mean, okay, that might be completely true.

247
00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:56,180
MICHELLE KANE:
It could be.

248
00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:56,500
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Good.

249
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:57,180
MICHELLE KANE:
For you.

250
00:15:57,180 --> 00:16:00,700
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah, exactly. I'm glad if that is really the
case.

251
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:06,180
But here's the trap. If you assume that the
system works for me,

252
00:16:06,340 --> 00:16:13,580
that it works. I could say a whole lot about
this because this translates to a lot of

253
00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:15,220
societal problems right now.

254
00:16:15,220 --> 00:16:21,860
But one person's experience can be very real
and still not be the pattern.

255
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:28,500
So you may never hear about the conversations
that happened in rooms that you weren't in.

256
00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:31,300
MICHELLE KANE:
So true. If you. What's that old saying?

257
00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:33,540
If you're not at the seat,
you're on the menu. Okay.

258
00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:38,980
Objection two. Aren't we just handing women
one more thing to worry about?

259
00:16:39,020 --> 00:16:42,580
Like we need to be. Can't they just ignore it
and do.

260
00:16:42,620 --> 00:16:45,550
Great. Well, sure. We want to do great work.

261
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:47,030
I also want to get paid.

262
00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:53,110
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Okay. How? I'm going to be gracious in my
response.

263
00:16:53,110 --> 00:16:58,230
So. So I understand that impulse,
I do, but telling someone to ignore a penalty

264
00:16:58,230 --> 00:17:01,150
that's documented isn't a strategy.

265
00:17:01,190 --> 00:17:05,430
It's it's asking that woman to absorb the
cost.

266
00:17:05,710 --> 00:17:11,670
And, you know, Harvard's researchers found
that part of the gap fades as people see

267
00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:15,030
peers using AI and they get some hands on
training.

268
00:17:15,670 --> 00:17:21,390
But the part about being judge really depends
on the workplace norms and trusts,

269
00:17:21,390 --> 00:17:24,070
and that part is not going to fix itself.

270
00:17:24,510 --> 00:17:26,750
MICHELLE KANE:
Right, right, right. So true.

271
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:28,590
Okay. Moving on. Objection three.

272
00:17:28,830 --> 00:17:34,030
And you know, I know not all men,
but this might be coming from some of the men

273
00:17:34,030 --> 00:17:37,390
listening. I don't want to be the guy who
makes everything about gender.

274
00:17:37,390 --> 00:17:38,590
What am I supposed to do?

275
00:17:38,790 --> 00:17:40,590
Yeah. And honestly, that's valid.

276
00:17:40,790 --> 00:17:43,350
KAREN SWIM, APR:
It is valid. And first of all, thank you so
much for

277
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:44,610
listening to this episode?

278
00:17:44,610 --> 00:17:45,090
MICHELLE KANE:
Thank you.

279
00:17:45,090 --> 00:17:48,570
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Because this is not. I feel like I have to
say this.

280
00:17:48,890 --> 00:17:52,610
This is not women versus men at all.

281
00:17:53,130 --> 00:17:56,370
Equality benefits both genders.

282
00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:59,690
Fairness and justice benefits everybody.

283
00:17:59,690 --> 00:18:02,450
But we have to talk about this and call this
stuff out.

284
00:18:02,450 --> 00:18:07,010
So I'm going to say that nobody is asking,
you know,

285
00:18:07,050 --> 00:18:10,650
you to make a speech. There are small
specific things that,

286
00:18:10,690 --> 00:18:11,730
you know, we can all do.

287
00:18:11,770 --> 00:18:14,250
And and we're going to talk about those.

288
00:18:14,290 --> 00:18:15,650
MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah, yeah. Because we get it.

289
00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:22,650
You know, there's, we get that corporations
are not necessarily friends to employees,

290
00:18:22,650 --> 00:18:25,370
right? So gender doesn't matter in those
instances.

291
00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:27,810
And you could be thinking,
you know, if I speak up, will it cost me

292
00:18:27,850 --> 00:18:29,650
clients or referrals? Yeah.

293
00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:34,210
Again, you do have to protect yourself no
matter your gender in the workplace.

294
00:18:34,370 --> 00:18:37,890
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's,
that's honest,

295
00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:39,690
right? That is a real fear.

296
00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:42,090
And some I don't want to dismiss that.

297
00:18:42,090 --> 00:18:45,740
And the Neutrogena story is exactly why it's
a real question.

298
00:18:46,020 --> 00:18:50,540
So, I mean, I would say that the first step
isn't necessarily a public stand.

299
00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:53,260
It's a practical one. So let's start there.

300
00:18:53,540 --> 00:18:57,220
MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah, absolutely. There are ways you can be
supportive.

301
00:18:57,980 --> 00:19:00,180
All right. Because we love our three question

302
00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:01,620
filter. Here we go.

303
00:19:01,780 --> 00:19:05,020
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. So first question is the swab test.

304
00:19:05,020 --> 00:19:09,940
And that is, you know,
if a man had done this exact thing,

305
00:19:09,980 --> 00:19:13,260
said this exact sentence or used this exact
hole,

306
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:16,140
would I be reacting the same way?

307
00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:22,500
So you run it on your own reactions first and
then notice how clients and colleagues

308
00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:23,660
react to you.

309
00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:26,300
MICHELLE KANE:
Love it. Okay. Number two.

310
00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:30,660
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. Am I judging the output or the origin
story?

311
00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:32,740
So if the work is good,
the work is good.

312
00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:36,860
Evaluate whether it holds up,
not whether someone used a tool or took a

313
00:19:36,860 --> 00:19:41,060
shortcut. And if you do ask,
how did you make this?

314
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:44,990
Ask everyone the same question every single
time,

315
00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:50,070
right? And three is the word visible and are
the numbers visible?

316
00:19:50,110 --> 00:19:54,510
Yeah. So you can describe your AI use as a
workflow,

317
00:19:54,550 --> 00:19:56,070
not a confession. Right?

318
00:19:56,110 --> 00:19:59,750
Not I used AI on this,
but I drafted the structure,

319
00:19:59,750 --> 00:20:04,990
rewrote the argument,
and checked every stat that pairs the tool

320
00:20:04,990 --> 00:20:08,190
with your own judgment,
which is that's essential,

321
00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:09,350
I would say. Oh, yeah.

322
00:20:09,390 --> 00:20:12,390
And you know, on money,
know your numbers, benchmark your rates.

323
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:16,110
And if you hire or subcontract,
share your pay range.

324
00:20:16,150 --> 00:20:20,710
MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah. Yeah. And, and honestly,
these are good practices across the board,

325
00:20:21,470 --> 00:20:24,430
not just, you know, for,
for these specific examples.

326
00:20:24,430 --> 00:20:26,230
So. Okay. We love a good drill.

327
00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:27,870
Let's run a drill. Yeah.

328
00:20:27,910 --> 00:20:32,670
So one of our listeners finishes a really
strong strategy deck.

329
00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:36,750
And the client says to them a little
suspiciously,

330
00:20:36,750 --> 00:20:38,990
this is great. Did AI write this?

331
00:20:39,710 --> 00:20:42,050
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. So swap test with the client.

332
00:20:42,090 --> 00:20:43,450
Ask a man the same thing.

333
00:20:43,930 --> 00:20:45,010
Right. Maybe. Maybe not.

334
00:20:45,010 --> 00:20:46,490
But it is worth noticing.

335
00:20:46,490 --> 00:20:48,010
And that's not an accusation.

336
00:20:48,010 --> 00:20:51,690
It's just that you want to have information
about how your client thinks.

337
00:20:51,730 --> 00:20:53,930
MICHELLE KANE:
Exactly. Question two.

338
00:20:54,170 --> 00:20:55,850
Judge the output. Right?

339
00:20:56,290 --> 00:20:58,650
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. So you steer it back to the work,
right?

340
00:20:58,810 --> 00:21:01,130
I use AI as part of my process.

341
00:21:01,130 --> 00:21:03,210
The way I use research tools.

342
00:21:03,210 --> 00:21:04,490
I drafted the structure.

343
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:07,330
I rewrote the positioning from our
interviews,

344
00:21:07,330 --> 00:21:09,450
and I checked every number against the
source.

345
00:21:09,450 --> 00:21:11,650
The judgment and the strategy are mine.

346
00:21:11,810 --> 00:21:21,690
I mean, I go back to was it Kara Ryan that
talks about AI or human led AI will check the

347
00:21:21,690 --> 00:21:22,730
show notes and we'll reference

348
00:21:22,730 --> 00:21:24,130
that episode. But I.

349
00:21:24,130 --> 00:21:24,730
MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah.

350
00:21:24,730 --> 00:21:29,210
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Actually, a lot of our recent guests have who
have been women have talked about that

351
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:33,010
approach, like making sure that they are just
full on transparent,

352
00:21:33,010 --> 00:21:35,490
that they are using AI as a tool in their

353
00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:37,130
businesses, a tool.

354
00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:37,930
MICHELLE KANE:
A tool.

355
00:21:37,930 --> 00:21:40,500
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Not as a, an employee?

356
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:45,780
No, not as a substitute for thinking and
critical

357
00:21:45,780 --> 00:21:47,380
reasoning. So. Yeah.

358
00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:50,500
MICHELLE KANE:
Correct. I mean, honestly,
you could even take that,

359
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:52,340
distill it down to a scissors.

360
00:21:52,340 --> 00:21:54,020
I use a scissors as a tool.

361
00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:57,060
Do I cut a straight line or do I shred the
paper?

362
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,540
I mean it's yeah, it's a little broad,
but you get the idea.

363
00:22:00,540 --> 00:22:01,140
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah.

364
00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:05,020
MICHELLE KANE:
Okay. So then the third part is,
of course, how do we make this work visible?

365
00:22:05,220 --> 00:22:09,380
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. So she would then turn that into a
standing practice,

366
00:22:09,380 --> 00:22:15,700
right? So there would be maybe like a line in
her proposals about how she uses AI and how

367
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:17,500
every deliverable gets reviewed.

368
00:22:17,660 --> 00:22:21,980
I was on a webinar recently too,
where Mark McClennan, APR showed his contract

369
00:22:21,980 --> 00:22:25,820
language for AI for himself,
but also for subcontractors.

370
00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:28,460
And it's something that,
you know, if you're in the process of

371
00:22:28,460 --> 00:22:31,620
updating documents, talk to your attorney
about adding that.

372
00:22:31,940 --> 00:22:36,700
So then this becomes not a confession in the
moment.

373
00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:40,720
And I use the word confession because
sometimes it's treated like you're,

374
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,360
you know, in the box that you're,
you're being judged.

375
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:45,600
So it's not a confession.

376
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,640
It's, it's just part of the process and it's
part of the process for every single client.

377
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,400
So then if the client pushes back on the fee
later,

378
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,160
you have already shown that you're not
charging for the toll,

379
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,680
you're charging for your judgment and your
expertise.

380
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,480
MICHELLE KANE:
Right, exactly. And as with anything in this
business or most business,

381
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,360
if you're ahead of the,
you know, stay ahead of it.

382
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:09,680
Yeah, you'll be fine. This takes the
defensiveness aspect out of it.

383
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,840
And hopefully with that,
some of the stress.

384
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:13,480
Yeah, yeah.

385
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,840
KAREN SWIM, APR:
I mean, I would also say,
you know, one more little action step for all

386
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,680
of us men and women is that,
you know, if you hear somebody say,

387
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:28,360
oh, she probably just used AI or she's,
she's a bit much pause and ask that same

388
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:32,720
question out loud and gently say, like, would
you have said that if

389
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,080
she was a him?

390
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,010
MICHELLE KANE:
Right, right. And you know,
and that is an easy,

391
00:23:39,810 --> 00:23:43,490
you know, way to not blow up a room,
but to push back.

392
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:44,490
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah.

393
00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:48,370
MICHELLE KANE:
And, you know, to protect each other. Because
as we've often talked about parity,

394
00:23:48,650 --> 00:23:52,810
not just in pricing, but protecting each
other helps us as a whole

395
00:23:52,810 --> 00:23:53,890
within our industry.

396
00:23:53,930 --> 00:23:58,490
KAREN SWIM, APR:
I mean, I, I agree, and I,
there's a way to say that that is,

397
00:23:58,970 --> 00:24:01,170
like you said, not blowing up the room.

398
00:24:01,170 --> 00:24:06,250
It's just, you know, you can just pause and
ask a gentle question because sometimes we

399
00:24:06,250 --> 00:24:08,650
all need to be checked and we need to,
you know,

400
00:24:09,010 --> 00:24:12,810
be encouraged to, you know,
not let these reflexes,

401
00:24:12,890 --> 00:24:17,330
reflexive responses stand in the room and be
quiet about it.

402
00:24:17,370 --> 00:24:20,250
Yeah. So, you know, I think,
you know.

403
00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:21,770
So why does this matter,
right.

404
00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:23,010
Beyond our own businesses?

405
00:24:23,010 --> 00:24:27,050
Because if we can't help clients get this
right,

406
00:24:27,690 --> 00:24:31,890
then should we really be advising anyone
about reputation?

407
00:24:31,890 --> 00:24:35,170
Because, you know, every one of us,
women and men,

408
00:24:35,330 --> 00:24:39,260
we are part of the The audience doing the
evaluating.

409
00:24:39,460 --> 00:24:42,020
MICHELLE KANE:
Yeah. So true. And I think that's,
you know,

410
00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:44,300
that's really connects to why we do the show,
right?

411
00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:48,420
Because so much of this pressure comes from
carrying it alone.

412
00:24:48,420 --> 00:24:51,500
And often you carry it quietly because,
you know,

413
00:24:51,540 --> 00:24:54,940
as we've joked, our family and friends don't
understand what the heck it is we do.

414
00:24:55,300 --> 00:24:56,300
KAREN SWIM, APR:
They do not.

415
00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:59,540
MICHELLE KANE:
And you know, there's no one to say,
hey, you know what? That's not you. It's the

416
00:24:59,540 --> 00:25:02,180
system. So you know, please know that you're
not alone

417
00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:03,340
out there. Solos.

418
00:25:03,580 --> 00:25:08,340
KAREN SWIM, APR:
You are not. And I mean,
if you've had your own Emily moment and you

419
00:25:08,340 --> 00:25:09,940
know, you're not alone.

420
00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:12,580
We have a solo PR pro community.

421
00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:17,620
And this is one of the strengths of that
community is that it's people that all work

422
00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:20,100
in the same way. We're all figuring it out
together.

423
00:25:20,140 --> 00:25:23,100
We're all sharing learnings,
we're supporting one another,

424
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:26,940
and it's a supportive environment for men and
women.

425
00:25:26,980 --> 00:25:29,380
MICHELLE KANE:
That's right. Which makes us stronger.

426
00:25:30,020 --> 00:25:32,620
So, you know, so, you know,
if you want to talk about it,

427
00:25:32,660 --> 00:25:34,940
you know, you can email us directly as well.

428
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:38,600
If you'd rather not share with a group,
that's totally fine too.

429
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,400
You can find out how to reach us at that solo
life.com.

430
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,840
KAREN SWIM, APR:
Yeah. And let us please keep Haden's family
and friends.

431
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:51,800
Yeah. And our thoughts and keep making room
for women to be honest and visible about the

432
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,120
their work and also their lives.

433
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,200
MICHELLE KANE:
Absolutely. And if I,
if I could just add a shout out that she

434
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,760
totally doesn't need I mean,
Kylie Kelce is,

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as she says, a real one.

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00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,640
Check out her podcast. She is very much in
support of women and men speaking their

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00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:12,920
truth. So on that note,
until next time, let's all take care of

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ourselves and we'll see you on That Solo
Life.