Welcome to That Solo Life: The Solo PR Pro Podcast!
Sept. 28, 2026

Big Numbers, No Impact: The PR Measurement Gap

Big Numbers, No Impact: The PR Measurement Gap
Big Numbers, No Impact: The PR Measurement Gap
That Solo Life: The Solo PR Pro Podcast
Big Numbers, No Impact: The PR Measurement Gap

Twenty-one percent of PR pros continue to measure activity rather than impact, and it is costing them a seat at the table.

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Episode Summary

If a client asked you right now to prove that anything you did last quarter actually moved their business, could you do it? This is the provocative question that opens today’s episode and sets the stage for an honest discussion on what PR practitioners are missing when it comes to measurement. According to the Meltwater and WE Communications State of PR report, 21% of PR pros still name measuring impact and ROI as a top challenge, not because they don't have tools, and not because they don't know it matters. This leaves many practitioners continuing to report on activity rather than impact.

The problem is structural: a standards and accountability gap that has been sitting under the industry for more than a decade. The Barcelona Principles are fifteen years old and still not reaching the majority of practitioners who need them most. Just as CCOs have earned a formal seat at the strategic table, 91% of Fortune 500 CEOs say polarization has increased the importance of PR —you have a profession that has been handed an invitation it isn't yet fully equipped to accept.

Episode Highlights
  • [00:13] The Opening Gut Check That Frames Everything: Michelle opens before the music with a direct question: if a client asked right now to prove that anything you did last quarter actually moved their business, could you do it? Karen's honest answer is yes but only because she has done the work, and she wasn't always there. The episode is built around the gap between those two positions: the practitioner who can answer that question with confidence, and the majority who can't yet.
  • [02:15] What the Meltwater Data Actually Shows: The starting point is Meltwater's annual State of PR report, produced with WE Communications. Key findings: 21% of PR pros say measuring impact and ROI is a top challenge. 24% point to insufficient resources. And when asked what's blocking better measurement, the top three answers are aligning metrics to business KPIs at 35%, proving PR's value to leadership at 28%, and overreliance on outdated metrics at 22%. Most tellingly: over 40% of respondents are still measuring activity — volume of media placements, reach, impressions — instead of outcomes. Fifteen years after the Barcelona Principles told the industry to stop doing this.
  • [06:48] The Tools Are There. The Standards Are Not.: Karen's reframe of the data: over 70% of respondents say they partially or completely already have the tools they need to connect PR to business outcomes. This is not a tools gap. It is not a knowledge gap. It is a standards and accountability gap. The Barcelona Principles now on version 4.0 after their fourth revision represent a rigorous framework for outcome-based measurement that was agreed upon by 200 delegates from 30 countries in 2010. Among AMEC's own membership, only 3% still consider advertising value equivalencies relevant. But AMEC's membership is self-selected, people who showed up specifically to care about measurement. In the broader Meltwater survey, reach and volume are still the top two metrics in actual use. The people who need the standard most are the least likely to be in the room where it's being taught.
  • [11:40] No Licensing Body, No Enforcement, No Consequence: PRSA has approximately 3,000 members. The Bureau of Labor Statistics counts roughly 282,000 public relations specialists in the US workforce for 2026, not including PR managers or many agency roles. That means PRSA reaches something like 1% of the profession. No licensing exam. No continuing education requirement. No consequence to anyone who never learns outcome-based measurement. Karen is direct that this is not a criticism of a diverse field that welcomes practitioners from many paths. It is simply the lay of the land and it explains why something as established as the Barcelona Principles remains unknown to most of the profession it was designed to help.
  • [13:53] The C-Suite Has Sent the Invitation — The Field Is Still Catching Up: The second half of the episode turns to the demand side. The Conference Board surveyed over 1,700 C-suite executives and found that chief communication officers have, quote, earned their seat at the table now explicitly expected to be strategic advisors, not just message conveyors. The 2026 USC Annenberg Global Communications Report found 91% of Fortune 500 CEOs say polarization has increased the importance of PR inside their organizations, with two-thirds expecting their comms function to be restructured soon. Cision's comms report found 84% of comms leaders feel increased demand from the C-suite for their counsel. But in that same survey, 37% still struggle to measure impact effectively, and 43% struggle to turn the data they have into actionable insight. The C-suite has moved faster than the field's infrastructure, education standards, and accountability systems. That mismatch is Karen's core diagnosis.
  • [17:43] The RPIE Cycle and Why Evaluation Gets Swallowed: RPIE — research, planning, implementation, and evaluation — is the standard planning cycle taught in PR programs. Karen and Michelle note that many practitioners who didn't go to school for PR, or came up through a different path, may have been doing this intuitively without knowing it had a name or a structure. The specific gap: evaluation is treated as the thing that happens when there's time left over at the end of a campaign, not as a scheduled, dedicated phase of the work. The consequence is that most PR practitioners are doing the middle of the cycle thoroughly and skipping the ends. Karen also names something counterintuitive: failure is a reportable metric. It tells you where to adjust your tactics, refine your messaging, and reconsider your audience assumptions. Avoiding reporting failure is human nature — and it's a mistake.
  • [22:53] The Solo-Specific Barrier: Tools That Cost $250,000: Karen names the measurement gap that no industry report will capture for independent practitioners: many of the tools that do the heavy lifting on measurement dashboards and attribution are simply unaffordable at solo scale. She is direct about her own experience spending roughly 40 hours of work time building measurement infrastructure by hand because she didn't have a $250,000 tools budget. Once the system is built, it's built. But getting there without agency resources, without a team to distribute the labor, and without a budget for enterprise software is a real and legitimate barrier that the industry data consistently undercounts.
  • [25:52] The Three-Question Filter: Karen closes the practical section with three questions every solo practitioner should be able to answer about their current client work. One: for each current client, can you name the two or three specific business KPIs that your work is actually supposed to move? Not outputs but actual business KPIs. Two: have you scheduled evaluation as its own dedicated time block, separate from the campaign itself or does it happen when there's time left over? Three: could you defend your measurement approach to a skeptical CFO in 60 seconds using outcome language, not reach and impressions? Karen's note on the third question: if you flinched, that's not a failure. That's useful information.
  • [27:21] The Live Drill: Healthcare Media Relations: Michelle walks a scenario: a practitioner running media relations for a regional healthcare system, whose monthly deliverable has always been placement counts and impressions. Karen runs the three questions against it. On KPIs: the practitioner needs to sit down with the client and ask what business result the placements are supposed to support — patient volume in a specific service line, donor confidence, physician recruitment. If the client can't answer that, the conversation about KPIs is the starting point, not a measurement tool. On evaluation time: most PR campaign cycles move from execution to reporting to the next campaign, with no actual evaluation phase. Blocking even a few hours at the end of the quarter to ask whether the numbers agreed on what actually moved is a structural change. On the CFO test: impressions are not an outcome. The practitioner who can connect placements to a physician recruitment result or a patient inquiry spike can defend their work. The one who can't is at risk in any leadership conversation.
  • [32:10] Why This Is Not Optional and Where to Start: Karen closes directly: this is not a nice-to-do. Measuring outcomes and not outputs, understanding the language of business, being able to show how your work moves the business forward this is the life of your PR business and career. She says it with weight, not alarm. And then immediately offers the other side: don't feel bad if you don't know where to start. The knowledge gap is real, the barrier is structural, and the path from where you are to where you need to be is learnable. Free resources exist such as books, case studies, and the RPIE framework itself. Peers who have already built this muscle can help. The Solo PR Pro community is specifically the safe space for questions practitioners don't want to ask publicly.
Resources & Additional Information Host & Show Info

That Solo Life is a podcast created for public relations, communication, and marketing professionals who work as independent and small practitioners. Hosted by Karen Swim, APR, President of Solo PR Pro, and Michelle Kane, Principal of Voice Matters, the show delivers expert insights, encouragement, and practical advice for solo PR pros navigating today's dynamic professional landscape.

Listen to all episodes and catch up on previous conversations at thatsololife.com.

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0:13 MICHELLE KANE: Hey Karen, quick gut check before we get into today's topic. MICHELLE KANE: Or maybe it's going to lead us into it. MICHELLE KANE: Who knows? If a client asked you right now to prove that anything you did in the last MICHELLE KANE: quarter actually moved their business, could you do it? KAREN SWIM, APR: You know, not to sound arrogant, but I could, KAREN SWIM, APR: but only only because I've done the KAREN SWIM, APR: work on this, but. MICHELLE KANE: Right. KAREN SWIM, APR: However, I once was like a lot of PR practitioners were metrics kind of was not my KAREN SWIM, APR: jam. I did what everybody else said that I should do. KAREN SWIM, APR: So yeah. But that's exactly the gap that we want to talk about today.

0:57 KAREN SWIM, APR: So welcome back to that Soul Alive, the podcast for independent PR and KAREN SWIM, APR: communication pros who are actually building a business. KAREN SWIM, APR: And let me say, independent PR professionals are really the top of the top of the top of KAREN SWIM, APR: practitioners in this business. KAREN SWIM, APR: So I'm Karen Swim, president of solo PR Pro. MICHELLE KANE: And I'm Michelle Cain, principal of Voice Matters. MICHELLE KANE: And it is just the two of us today, which is absolutely fine. MICHELLE KANE: And I agree, we are pretty, pretty darn good at what we do, MICHELLE KANE: if I do say so myself. MICHELLE KANE: And I think we don't say that enough. So we'll say it today. MICHELLE KANE: But this one's been building for a little while and and I know totally what you mean MICHELLE KANE: about that. It's like, oh, okay, how do we solve for X?

1:45 MICHELLE KANE: But I think we've both gotten pretty good at making sure we know what X is before we even MICHELLE KANE: get started. So let's dig in. MICHELLE KANE: This is a, this is a little heavier than usual. MICHELLE KANE: So. So hang in with us. MICHELLE KANE: A little more industry critique than, let's say, MICHELLE KANE: personal growth, but it definitely matters to be able to wrangle with our metrics so that MICHELLE KANE: we can not just prove our worth. MICHELLE KANE: But don't you want to know that what you're doing is working? KAREN SWIM, APR: I agree, and I think that this goes to a lot of the topics that we've been addressing over KAREN SWIM, APR: the past few weeks have been more business focused. KAREN SWIM, APR: And this really at the heart of it is about business acumen.

2:26 KAREN SWIM, APR: And so this, this episode came out of the starting point was a report that meltwater KAREN SWIM, APR: and we w e period communications did earlier this year, KAREN SWIM, APR: it was their annual state of the PR report. KAREN SWIM, APR: And within the thread of, of this, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: of these numbers, there was something that said that measurement still hasn't caught up, KAREN SWIM, APR: even with everything AI is supposedly doing for us. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Which feels backwards, right? MICHELLE KANE: Because we have more data than ever.

3:07 MICHELLE KANE: We have plenty of tools. MICHELLE KANE: We have more automation, you know, than our industry has ever had MICHELLE KANE: access to. And yet kind of here we are. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So it's exactly that paradox, Michelle. KAREN SWIM, APR: And so today, our question is, you know, with all of these advances, KAREN SWIM, APR: what are we actually missing on measurement? KAREN SWIM, APR: And more importantly, why? MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. And as always, all the goods will be in our show notes. MICHELLE KANE: So let's dig in. Let's start. MICHELLE KANE: What did what did meltwater find? KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So they found that 21% of PR pros say that measuring impact and ROI is a top KAREN SWIM, APR: challenge. 24% pointed to insufficient resources.

3:54 KAREN SWIM, APR: And. And when you ask what's actually blocking better measurement, KAREN SWIM, APR: the top three answers were aligning metrics to business KPIs. KAREN SWIM, APR: 35%. Proving PR's value to leadership 28% and overreliance on outdated KAREN SWIM, APR: metrics 22%. MICHELLE KANE: So the bright side is, is the problem here is not that people, MICHELLE KANE: you know, people know that metrics matter. MICHELLE KANE: So that's good. Yeah. We don't have to worry about that. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. They know. But the most commonly used metrics to evaluate the success of PR efforts KAREN SWIM, APR: according to their own data is still the volume of media placements, KAREN SWIM, APR: region impressions. So over 40% of respondents to the survey said that they're KAREN SWIM, APR: still measuring activity instead of outcome.

4:52 KAREN SWIM, APR: So. Yeah, probably. MICHELLE KANE: A little bit. And that's, you know, 15 and beyond years, MICHELLE KANE: you know, after the Barcelona principles came around and, MICHELLE KANE: you know, told us, stop doing that. MICHELLE KANE: 15 years. Come on, guys, let's get it together. KAREN SWIM, APR: I know and we're going to talk about Barcelona too. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's that really makes me sad because it feels like we're not really paying attention. KAREN SWIM, APR: And some of this may may come with that lack of a, KAREN SWIM, APR: of a central like training body or credentialing where we're not, KAREN SWIM, APR: we don't all have access to the same set of information.

5:41 KAREN SWIM, APR: And this is not been made the standard by some industry body. KAREN SWIM, APR: And so people kind of do their own thing. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. That's true, that's true. MICHELLE KANE: You know, and I think it's just something that I, MICHELLE KANE: I think too, in the day to day of our work, I mean, MICHELLE KANE: how often do we talk about how much another week goes by and we're moving the things MICHELLE KANE: along and you don't really have time to stop and go, MICHELLE KANE: okay, wait a second. Yeah. MICHELLE KANE: How how is how I'm doing things working, you know? MICHELLE KANE: But yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: There was a, a follow up piece to this. KAREN SWIM, APR: And Kelly Costello from meltwater.

6:22 KAREN SWIM, APR: She framed it as the challenge isn't a lack of information. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's connecting communications activity to the outcomes that matter most to leadership. MICHELLE KANE: Right. And sometimes it's hard to make that direct line. MICHELLE KANE: You have to get a little creative to find the way to connect it, MICHELLE KANE: to make it meaningful, right? MICHELLE KANE: So, you know, it's not a straight up data problem. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. MICHELLE KANE: A unique problem. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And I mean, that is the question, right? KAREN SWIM, APR: So over 70% of respondents said that they partially or completely already have the KAREN SWIM, APR: tools they need to connect PR to business outcomes.

7:03 KAREN SWIM, APR: So it's actually not a primary tools problem either. MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. So I mean, what do we think. MICHELLE KANE: Is it, you know, sometimes our clients have goals that might not align with what we're MICHELLE KANE: able to capture. I don't know what do you think? KAREN SWIM, APR: I mean, I think this isn't a tools gap. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not a knowledge gap. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I think it's the standards and accountability gap. KAREN SWIM, APR: And it's you know, it's been sitting underneath the industry for over a decade. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah, let's unpack that because that's, MICHELLE KANE: that's a really big revelation, I think. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So Barcelona principles in case, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: people are just like, okay, kind of I remember hearing about that. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So the American measurement and evaluation of the Association for.

7:51 KAREN SWIM, APR: Okay. Let me give the official title. KAREN SWIM, APR: International Association for the Measurement and Evaluation of Communication. KAREN SWIM, APR: Amec. Amec. They convened about 200 delegates from over 30 countries back in 2010. KAREN SWIM, APR: So the early outs. And they set up a standard for how PR should be measured. KAREN SWIM, APR: So basically it's no Avs measure outcomes, not outputs, KAREN SWIM, APR: that kind of thing. And it's been updated since. KAREN SWIM, APR: So we're on version 4.0 now. MICHELLE KANE: So it's been refined. It's been around a while. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. It's 15 years old. KAREN SWIM, APR: And on its fourth revision.

8:32 KAREN SWIM, APR: And within their own membership, people who have opted into caring about this, KAREN SWIM, APR: only 3% say Avs are even relevant to an evaluation program anymore. MICHELLE KANE: Exactly. So that's good. MICHELLE KANE: So we've made the jump mentally. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah we have. But there's a trap in that statistic. KAREN SWIM, APR: Imagine Amex membership is self-selected. KAREN SWIM, APR: So these are people that are already they they showed up to a measurement organization. KAREN SWIM, APR: So you would expect them to be all over this. KAREN SWIM, APR: But in the broader, you know, meltwater survey, KAREN SWIM, APR: which is, you know, more representative of the general population of PR pros.

9:14 KAREN SWIM, APR: And and I want to say, general, make sure you hear that word, KAREN SWIM, APR: general, because this is not independent practitioners, KAREN SWIM, APR: it's general that reach and volume are still the top two metrics that are in actual use. KAREN SWIM, APR: And so the people who really need the standard the most are the least likely to be KAREN SWIM, APR: in the room where it's being taught. MICHELLE KANE: And that gets us back to, as you know, you said earlier, MICHELLE KANE: there's no standard, you know, we have the Apr, MICHELLE KANE: we have things like that. But there is no one. MICHELLE KANE: There's no like American Medical Association for PR practitioners to keep us on us even a MICHELLE KANE: similar page sometimes. MICHELLE KANE: You know, our foundations.

9:56 MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: So, I mean, you hit the nail on the head. KAREN SWIM, APR: It had it's not that these principles were rejected. KAREN SWIM, APR: They were just never distributed. MICHELLE KANE: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. MICHELLE KANE: So, you know, yeah. Like I said, it's not like you can get a you again. MICHELLE KANE: You can get your a PR, but you can't get a CPA public relations, MICHELLE KANE: you know, which is a lot, you know, when you think about how many of us MICHELLE KANE: are in the field. KAREN SWIM, APR: I know. MICHELLE KANE: And how do we get there? Right. KAREN SWIM, APR: I mean, you know, honestly, and, you know, I, KAREN SWIM, APR: I have an a PR. I'm a member of PSA.

10:38 KAREN SWIM, APR: I honestly don't remember the Barcelona principles being part of the Credentialing KAREN SWIM, APR: process, but I could be remembering wrong. KAREN SWIM, APR: But so we have PSA, we have iabc. KAREN SWIM, APR: We, you know, we have these voluntary membership organizations, KAREN SWIM, APR: but they're not licensing bodies. KAREN SWIM, APR: And so that means that nobody is required to join any of them in order to call themselves KAREN SWIM, APR: a PR professional. I don't want to make that a knock because I think that that's okay. KAREN SWIM, APR: I love the fact that people come to public relations in so many diverse ways. KAREN SWIM, APR: I am one of those people who took a very crooked path to PR, KAREN SWIM, APR: and I'm glad that I had that opportunity. KAREN SWIM, APR: So this is not a criticism.

11:20 KAREN SWIM, APR: It's just a lay of the land. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. MICHELLE KANE: Definitely. It's we it's wonderful that we have a very varied field. MICHELLE KANE: So yeah, I wouldn't say it's a problem to solve. MICHELLE KANE: We just have to find the best way to exist within this landscape right now and get MICHELLE KANE: those metrics. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I mean, when you think about it. KAREN SWIM, APR: Psa, I think has maybe about 3000 members. KAREN SWIM, APR: Wow. Yeah. It's not a lot. KAREN SWIM, APR: Right. It's when there's roughly get this according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, give or take, you know, a few thousand there's about 282 KAREN SWIM, APR: 000 public relations specialists in the US workforce.

12:07 KAREN SWIM, APR: Wow. For 2026. And so that number doesn't really even include PR and comms managers or KAREN SWIM, APR: a lot of agency roles. KAREN SWIM, APR: So even if you looked at that as a conservative number, KAREN SWIM, APR: that means that even an organization that, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: we think of as a pretty big organization, it's, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, it's a global organization actually, KAREN SWIM, APR: but it's, you know, national for the US, it's just a tiny slice of KAREN SWIM, APR: the whole profession. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. That's like 1 in 10. MICHELLE KANE: So it's really not even. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. We're not even in, let's say, one theoretical room. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. That's I mean, that's so true.

12:48 KAREN SWIM, APR: And I don't know the the current membership for Iabc. KAREN SWIM, APR: But, you know, again, it's not it's not 200,000 of that 280 KAREN SWIM, APR: 000 people. MICHELLE KANE: Right, right, right. So, you know, like, like we're saying, MICHELLE KANE: without a central body that could enforce Barcelona principles, MICHELLE KANE: you know, even if they wanted to, we're we're as with most things, MICHELLE KANE: we're out here having to do it ourselves, which is fine, MICHELLE KANE: but it'd be nice. But hey, that's all right. MICHELLE KANE: So there isn't so. Yeah, we do what we need to do. KAREN SWIM, APR: No licensing exam, no continuing education requirement.

13:31 KAREN SWIM, APR: There's no consequence actually, to anybody who never learns outcome based KAREN SWIM, APR: measurement. And again, I, I think that's okay because there's lots KAREN SWIM, APR: of professions where, you know, this doesn't exist, KAREN SWIM, APR: but it makes it tricky when there's something that can actually help us and there's no way KAREN SWIM, APR: to effectively put it into place. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. No that's true, that's true. MICHELLE KANE: Well, now that we've, we've belabored the structural side of it, MICHELLE KANE: right? But now we want to get over to the C-suite side of this. MICHELLE KANE: How do we make this connection? MICHELLE KANE: And, and here's where it does get interesting because a lot of this data is really MICHELLE KANE: very encouraging. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So the conference board surveyed over 1700 C-suite executives.

14:15 KAREN SWIM, APR: And for those C-suite outlook and they found that chief communication officers KAREN SWIM, APR: have, quote, earned their seat at the table. KAREN SWIM, APR: And they're now explicitly expected to be strategic advisors, KAREN SWIM, APR: not just message conveyors. KAREN SWIM, APR: So I love this because that means corporate strategy is the top communications priority. KAREN SWIM, APR: C-suites want from their CEOs this year. MICHELLE KANE: Love that. And it's great to see USC Annenberg backing that up too. MICHELLE KANE: And it plays right into a solo PR pro's wheelhouse. KAREN SWIM, APR: It does. I mean, the the 2026 Global Communications report, KAREN SWIM, APR: which we've talked about they had interviews with fortune 500 CEOs.

15:05 KAREN SWIM, APR: And they found that 91% say polarization has actually increased the importance of PR KAREN SWIM, APR: inside their organization. I could totally see that. KAREN SWIM, APR: And two thirds think that their comms function is likely to get restructured soon. KAREN SWIM, APR: 36% say very likely. MICHELLE KANE: That's fantastic. So are you saying we finally got the formal invitation to a seat MICHELLE KANE: at the table where we should have been all these years? KAREN SWIM, APR: I, I think that invitation has definitely been sent. KAREN SWIM, APR: So I mean, we so here's, you know, the kind of attention that we're KAREN SWIM, APR: talking about. Cisions coms report found that 84% of coms leaders feel increased demand KAREN SWIM, APR: from the C-suite for their counsel.

15:54 KAREN SWIM, APR: But in that same survey, 37% still struggle to measure impact KAREN SWIM, APR: effectively. And, and 43% struggle to turn the data they do have into KAREN SWIM, APR: actionable insight. MICHELLE KANE: So, so, right. So we've got the invitation to the strategic table, MICHELLE KANE: maybe faster than we've built the, you know, MICHELLE KANE: that muscle to to sit at it credibly. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of think that so the c-suites expectations have moved a little KAREN SWIM, APR: faster than the fields, infrastructure, education standards, KAREN SWIM, APR: accountability, and I think all of Meltwaters numbers go back to that mismatch.

16:38 KAREN SWIM, APR: And I to me this, you know, I said the the words earlier, KAREN SWIM, APR: but it's true. This is a business acumen problem. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not that we're not knowledgeable. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not that we don't know that oh my God, we do need to align these numbers. KAREN SWIM, APR: We just don't have the language and the knowledge to understand the language of KAREN SWIM, APR: business and how to translate the language of PR so that it maps back. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. So true. And yeah, not to throw this back on clients. MICHELLE KANE: Sometimes the thing that they think we should be measuring for, MICHELLE KANE: yeah, isn't what we should be measuring for.

17:19 MICHELLE KANE: And sometimes, I mean, even a, you know, campaign I'm running right MICHELLE KANE: now, it's, it's not achieving, you know, item A, MICHELLE KANE: but it is doing a lot in other ways. MICHELLE KANE: So it's just being able to communicate that and decide, MICHELLE KANE: you know, what's on the plate. But that kind of brings us to our PIE, MICHELLE KANE: which I know is the part we've really been wanting to get into. Let's talk about it. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And you know, part of so for those who may not know, KAREN SWIM, APR: because here again, here's a term that I think so many PR posts don't know. KAREN SWIM, APR: Our Pi is research, planning, implementation and evaluation. KAREN SWIM, APR: So this is this, that standard planning cycle. KAREN SWIM, APR: And it's taught in PR programs.

18:00 KAREN SWIM, APR: But maybe you didn't go to school for PR. KAREN SWIM, APR: I did not I really became familiar with this after I had been practicing for many years, KAREN SWIM, APR: and I've been doing this. KAREN SWIM, APR: I didn't know that was the name. MICHELLE KANE: But I messed it up. Yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: When I got credentialed, that's when I KAREN SWIM, APR: really, really learned it. MICHELLE KANE: So yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: We I think that you said something really important evaluation. KAREN SWIM, APR: And that's not just, it's not just evaluation at the end. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's its evaluation during a campaign so that you can make tweaks. KAREN SWIM, APR: But evaluation means honestly looking at what failed, KAREN SWIM, APR: because that is knowledge. KAREN SWIM, APR: And I think, Michel, as you said, like you, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: this business, you're really good at what you do and you, KAREN SWIM, APR: you understand this, but some of our younger PR pros or people who maybe came up a KAREN SWIM, APR: different side of the industry and by nature of our optimism, KAREN SWIM, APR: in spite of the stress of our jobs, we want things to go really well.

19:00 KAREN SWIM, APR: So I think it's really hard to embrace that that failure is a reportable metric. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's important. It's meaningful. KAREN SWIM, APR: It shows you where you need to maybe tweak your, KAREN SWIM, APR: your tactics or where you might need to refine your messaging, KAREN SWIM, APR: where you may take another look at your audiences and make sure that you didn't miss KAREN SWIM, APR: its information. And yeah, it can help you to improve in the future. KAREN SWIM, APR: So don't be afraid to measure or I see this all the time. KAREN SWIM, APR: Again, it's human nature. Like, I don't want to report that because it's not KAREN SWIM, APR: great. It didn't do all of the things it was supposed to do. KAREN SWIM, APR: That's a big mistake.

19:40 MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. And I think a way back from that or to protect against that is at the MICHELLE KANE: beginning of a campaign. MICHELLE KANE: You just say, hey, we are making the best informed choices that we can, MICHELLE KANE: given what we know and what we have at hand. MICHELLE KANE: We may find out that it's completely different, MICHELLE KANE: but we're going to find out and we'll adapt from there. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, it's I love what you say. MICHELLE KANE: It's information. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's information because it. KAREN SWIM, APR: But it also points to that need to really do your research. KAREN SWIM, APR: And I think, yes, there's a lot of pressure sometimes to fast track. KAREN SWIM, APR: I'm always leery of, for example, a client coming to you and wanting to get KAREN SWIM, APR: started immediately because to me that says PR is an afterthought.

20:27 KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not something that they're going to allow for a planned strategic process. KAREN SWIM, APR: And I get it in these economic times, sometimes you want to say yes immediately KAREN SWIM, APR: because here's somebody wanting to give you money to do a job that you love in a time KAREN SWIM, APR: when business is moving very slowly. KAREN SWIM, APR: I get it, but I would say ideally that's a red flag because it means that they're KAREN SWIM, APR: looking to you for tactics. KAREN SWIM, APR: They're looking for tactics. KAREN SWIM, APR: But guess what? They are going to want business outcomes. KAREN SWIM, APR: And when you jump into something like that, your mind is not thinking about that.

21:07 KAREN SWIM, APR: Your mind is thinking, I can work really hard. KAREN SWIM, APR: I can get these outputs right. KAREN SWIM, APR: But when they say, but it really didn't do anything because at the end of the day, KAREN SWIM, APR: it's the business outcomes that really matter, KAREN SWIM, APR: not the outputs. MICHELLE KANE: Right? Right. And that that is putting my algebraic hat on. MICHELLE KANE: That is the X we are solving for business outcomes. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So I mean. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Right. KAREN SWIM, APR: We are. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Don't ask me to frame it in MICHELLE KANE: geometry. That ship has sailed. KAREN SWIM, APR: But I know and I, so our industry we are struggling, KAREN SWIM, APR: right? We're struggling to measure our own output output because we don't even measure KAREN SWIM, APR: how we spend our own time either.

21:56 KAREN SWIM, APR: You know, we don't. So we do have meltwaters finding that measurement and reporting is one KAREN SWIM, APR: of the biggest time sinks PR teams report. KAREN SWIM, APR: And, and I can, I can confirm it does take time. KAREN SWIM, APR: And that insufficient resources is our second biggest measurement barrier at 24%. KAREN SWIM, APR: So when you put all that together, really, it just means that everybody's busy KAREN SWIM, APR: doing the middle of the cycle to properly do the ends of it. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. No, that's so true. MICHELLE KANE: And yeah, when you're, you're so busy just trying to make things MICHELLE KANE: happen every day, it's like I don't have time for one more thing, MICHELLE KANE: but you really need again, make that time.

22:41 KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. MICHELLE KANE: Because eventually it's going to make your life so much easier and you're going to look MICHELLE KANE: so much smarter because you'll be operating, you'll be operating smarter. KAREN SWIM, APR: And I mean, shout out to, you know, our fellow independents. KAREN SWIM, APR: I think a barrier that no report is going to capture is that there are so many great tools KAREN SWIM, APR: out there that do some of the heavy lifting, but they are unaffordable. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: Can I just say that we do not have, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: to a $250,000 budget to just spend on tools and we do not have, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, teams of that people lined up where the lift is distributed, KAREN SWIM, APR: but we serve the same clients and the requirements are still the same.

23:31 KAREN SWIM, APR: So I feel your pain. I, I cannot tell you I have spent, KAREN SWIM, APR: I've spent like an entire week, like literally 40 hours worth of work, KAREN SWIM, APR: still doing other things, figuring out where I can get information to KAREN SWIM, APR: build measurement dashboards because I did not have $250,000 to spend. KAREN SWIM, APR: And so I understand and but once you know, you dig in and you start looking for the KAREN SWIM, APR: information that you really need and how to best get that to be repeatable. KAREN SWIM, APR: And you build the dashboard. It's built, it's done. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. But I, I just want to know that we see you and we completely understand.

24:15 KAREN SWIM, APR: So there's this, I can understand why it's difficult, KAREN SWIM, APR: number one, to first start to learn what's meaningful to business and how to speak in KAREN SWIM, APR: that language. But then to know on some level what you should be reporting, KAREN SWIM, APR: but not know how to get that information, that that is a real struggle. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And I think sometimes part of it too is, MICHELLE KANE: you know, the clients will think it's one thing, MICHELLE KANE: but you really have to have a deeper conversation with them to really get to the MICHELLE KANE: point, because sometimes there are other factors as well that matter, MICHELLE KANE: that just because no one has taken the time to talk about it. KAREN SWIM, APR: Absolutely.

24:56 MICHELLE KANE: Could be other things to, to put in the mix because, you know, MICHELLE KANE: have more things to measure in your homemade dashboards. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. But it's good. MICHELLE KANE: It's all right. It is. KAREN SWIM, APR: Good. I mean, I, it's satisfying once you can conquer this. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And then you have to conquer it again because things change. KAREN SWIM, APR: But it, this is a good thing to try to find some time to learn more about and to, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, find the right tool mix, team up with other pros. KAREN SWIM, APR: Like I'm seeing a lot of that. KAREN SWIM, APR: And I think that's smart so that we can share information and resources. KAREN SWIM, APR: Because it's, it's tough, but, but we have to, KAREN SWIM, APR: we have to be ready to own that strategic advisor seat.

25:44 KAREN SWIM, APR: And that means being able to confidently talk about how what we do moves the KAREN SWIM, APR: business forward. MICHELLE KANE: Absolutely. And we always like a framework to help our listeners. MICHELLE KANE: So yeah, we have a three question filter. MICHELLE KANE: Let's, let's dig into that. KAREN SWIM, APR: Okay. Do we is it three? MICHELLE KANE: It's a three, I think so, yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. We do, we do we do we, we have KAREN SWIM, APR: three questions. So MICHELLE KANE: It's a nice round. KAREN SWIM, APR: Three. MICHELLE KANE: Right round number. KAREN SWIM, APR: Okay, so here we go. First piece of this. KAREN SWIM, APR: The first question is for your current clients.

26:24 KAREN SWIM, APR: Could you name the 2 or 3 specific business KPIs that your work is actually supposed to KAREN SWIM, APR: move? Not outputs. Actual business KPIs. MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. Just solid things that we can point to. MICHELLE KANE: Right. Yeah. And then the second thing would be. KAREN SWIM, APR: Have you scheduled evaluation as its own real block of time separate from the campaign KAREN SWIM, APR: itself, or does it just kind of happen when there's time left over at the end? KAREN SWIM, APR: You need to be honest about that with yourself. KAREN SWIM, APR: No one's listening. No one's judging. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, I think that's huge too. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And you owe it to yourself to do that for MICHELLE KANE: sure. And three. KAREN SWIM, APR: This is a big one. Could you defend your measurement approach to a skeptical CFO in KAREN SWIM, APR: 60s using outcome language, not reach and impressions?

27:15 KAREN SWIM, APR: And if you flinched at that question. KAREN SWIM, APR: Don't worry. That's not a failure. KAREN SWIM, APR: That's just useful information. MICHELLE KANE: Exactly, exactly. Because you know, so often, MICHELLE KANE: right. It's like, well, you got this many impressions and the MICHELLE KANE: client's like, well, what does that mean? And you're like, oh yeah, MICHELLE KANE: people saw it. So. And I get it because, I mean, MICHELLE KANE: sometimes it is just nebulous, right? MICHELLE KANE: You're like, yeah, so yeah. MICHELLE KANE: So all right, let's run a drill. MICHELLE KANE: Let's say one of our listeners runs media relations. MICHELLE KANE: I don't know for a regional health care system. MICHELLE KANE: Right. Okay. And their main deliverable has always been placement counts and those MICHELLE KANE: impressions in the monthly report.

28:03 KAREN SWIM, APR: So the numbers and the pretty, pretty reports. KAREN SWIM, APR: So I would say the first question is about business KPIs. KAREN SWIM, APR: That person would need to sit down with their client and you actually want to talk to them. KAREN SWIM, APR: You want to ask like what business result the placements are supposed to support? KAREN SWIM, APR: Because there's always a reason why we're not just out there, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, doing earned media because it looks good or to have something to put on a KAREN SWIM, APR: website. We know that, right? KAREN SWIM, APR: But you need to talk to your clients. KAREN SWIM, APR: So is it patient volume in a specific service line? KAREN SWIM, APR: Is it donor confidence? KAREN SWIM, APR: Is it physician recruitment?

28:44 KAREN SWIM, APR: It has to be something concrete. KAREN SWIM, APR: Right. And if if they can't answer that today, KAREN SWIM, APR: then that's that's a real starting point, right? KAREN SWIM, APR: It's it's not a measurement tool. KAREN SWIM, APR: It's a starting point for, you know, getting to what really matters. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And, and I think that's helpful for the client as well to start thinking in those in MICHELLE KANE: that respect. And also especially in healthcare, MICHELLE KANE: it's going to change for every campaign. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah, that is so true. MICHELLE KANE: So question two, as we're working through this establishing your evaluation as its MICHELLE KANE: own time block. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So this is might be a typical like process that we use the, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, you do the work, the placements go out, KAREN SWIM, APR: the report goes out and then the next campaign starts, KAREN SWIM, APR: right? Yeah. And there's no evaluation phase.

29:36 KAREN SWIM, APR: You've done the reporting, which you're considering like that's KAREN SWIM, APR: evaluation, but it's just activity followed by more activity. KAREN SWIM, APR: So I would say even blocking out, you know, a few hours at the end of every KAREN SWIM, APR: quarter to ask, you know, did this move the number we agreed on? KAREN SWIM, APR: That's a structural change. KAREN SWIM, APR: I know that rather than waiting out the quarter, KAREN SWIM, APR: because that gets to be really a lot of work, KAREN SWIM, APR: even though for, you know, a lot of clients, KAREN SWIM, APR: we only have to do quarterly measurement reports. KAREN SWIM, APR: I still look at it every month because, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: as the people that are running the, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: strategic campaigns. We still need to be able to make adjustments when we can.

30:17 KAREN SWIM, APR: We don't want to wait until the end and do only one measurement. KAREN SWIM, APR: We're measuring every month to see like, are we, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, how are we progressing towards the outcomes? KAREN SWIM, APR: You know, what are we moving the needle on? KAREN SWIM, APR: What is something that we may need to address? So I would say probably is a good KAREN SWIM, APR: practice. And especially if you're just starting out, block out time at the end of KAREN SWIM, APR: every month. And I mean, if you could do it, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, twice a month, that's even better. KAREN SWIM, APR: But you don't want to overwhelm yourself. KAREN SWIM, APR: But, you know, you need to look at it so that, KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, so that you can affect change and make recommendations. MICHELLE KANE: Absolutely. And it's, it's great when the information tells you MICHELLE KANE: something and you can make that change. I mean, right now I'm working with a client and MICHELLE KANE: we have an ad in a movie theater that has a QR code that leads to a downloadable well, MICHELLE KANE: in the movie theater, it's not really leading to that. We're MICHELLE KANE: getting far more traction with the static piece on social.

31:09 MICHELLE KANE: But that's not a failure. MICHELLE KANE: And that's not bad because they're still getting awareness and expertise is being MICHELLE KANE: established. Fine. And you know, it's yeah, it's it's not, MICHELLE KANE: it's not always, oh my gosh, it didn't do exactly what I want. MICHELLE KANE: It's all right. Be cool. KAREN SWIM, APR: So I love that. MICHELLE KANE: Look at that on our new solo PR pro. MICHELLE KANE: It's all right. Be cool. MICHELLE KANE: You know so it's you know it's it's and and just to say, MICHELLE KANE: it's not always about buying a new tool, you know, MICHELLE KANE: that that might work for our home projects, but not so much with our PR campaign.

31:51 KAREN SWIM, APR: Probably doesn't work for our home projects. Not, not at this point anyway. MICHELLE KANE: Oh, no. Exactly. We know we need just I need someone to do it anyway. MICHELLE KANE: Oh my gosh. But yeah, and I think you've seen that meltwater data MICHELLE KANE: really proves that it's not always about the tools. KAREN SWIM, APR: It isn't. No it isn't. MICHELLE KANE: So. All right, so before we wrap, let's zoom out. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. MICHELLE KANE: Right. We've really taken a deep dive in. MICHELLE KANE: Let's, let's back up a little bit and talk about how this matters beyond any one MICHELLE KANE: particular client, you know, report from any MICHELLE KANE: practitioner, right? KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I so this is going to sound grave in a way, KAREN SWIM, APR: but you know, I've said this before, so it's not a surprise.

32:39 KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I do believe that every single one of us can get sharper on business acumen KAREN SWIM, APR: measuring outcomes and not outputs. KAREN SWIM, APR: And I've been sounding the alarm long before this economy became trash, KAREN SWIM, APR: long before all of the events of the day. KAREN SWIM, APR: But I honestly feel like this is not a nice to do. KAREN SWIM, APR: This is the life of your PR business and career. KAREN SWIM, APR: We have to get better about being business people and not just comms people, KAREN SWIM, APR: or we are not going to be able to secure and maintain work.

33:26 KAREN SWIM, APR: Honestly, I don't say that lightly. KAREN SWIM, APR: And I don't say that about a lot of things, but I do feel very strongly and I challenge KAREN SWIM, APR: myself, like, this is something that actually keeps me up at night as I look at what I'm KAREN SWIM, APR: doing. And I'm always looking, you know, reading other things and trying to KAREN SWIM, APR: learn more, because I know that if I cannot show my value, KAREN SWIM, APR: I am not going to have a job. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And that's honestly, that's always been the name of the game as, MICHELLE KANE: as we build our businesses. MICHELLE KANE: And I think, yeah, you know, it's a lot of what we as independent MICHELLE KANE: Practitioners. I can't imagine an independent practitioner not thinking that way.

34:10 MICHELLE KANE: I'm sure there are some, but yeah, we have to stay on top of things. MICHELLE KANE: And and I mean, you are you are a business person. MICHELLE KANE: So you've already taken the first step. MICHELLE KANE: So yeah, we really need to be sharp and understand just what's going on out there, MICHELLE KANE: especially in the industries that you're serving and, MICHELLE KANE: and what that means and what your clients need from you. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And I mean, I want to say this, do not feel bad because I, KAREN SWIM, APR: I truly believe that everyone knows this on some level, KAREN SWIM, APR: but you really may just not know how to get from where you are to where you need to be.

34:53 KAREN SWIM, APR: That is really okay. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: Come to a safe space, talk about it with peers that may be doing KAREN SWIM, APR: things and that can help you can show you. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. KAREN SWIM, APR: You don't have to like buy, you know, courses. KAREN SWIM, APR: Although if you want to go that route, we can point you to some fabulous resources KAREN SWIM, APR: to learn more about measurement. KAREN SWIM, APR: There's also free resources. KAREN SWIM, APR: Don't forget about books you that you can check out from the library. KAREN SWIM, APR: You don't even have to buy them. There's, there's books, for example, on our Pi and you KAREN SWIM, APR: can see how practitioners have used this. KAREN SWIM, APR: And so you can take advantage of their case studies and learn how they implemented this KAREN SWIM, APR: and how they evaluated campaigns.

35:34 KAREN SWIM, APR: There's yeah, just so many things out there, but your peers can really help you. KAREN SWIM, APR: Don't be ashamed if you have questions and you're like, KAREN SWIM, APR: oh, I'm not as good at this or I don't really know where to start. KAREN SWIM, APR: There's no shame in that. KAREN SWIM, APR: We're, we're doing this episode because it's our desire to make sure that we are KAREN SWIM, APR: supporting you and protecting your livelihood and making sure that none of us gets left KAREN SWIM, APR: behind by something that's critical to the people that we serve. MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. And, you know, and even the process of our pie, MICHELLE KANE: it's like, well, yeah, of course, this is what we do. And oh, now MICHELLE KANE: there's a name for it. Of course, you know, and, MICHELLE KANE: and that is what you may have your own, you know, MICHELLE KANE: cadre of, of colleagues that you can trust.

36:23 MICHELLE KANE: And certainly with the solo PR pro member community is for it is the ultimate safe MICHELLE KANE: space. You know, it's where we can come together and help each other problem solve. MICHELLE KANE: And I think that's what's really beautiful about our industry as a whole. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yes. MICHELLE KANE: I, you know, nothing's perfect, but I think as a whole, MICHELLE KANE: we are eager to see each other succeed because when that happens, MICHELLE KANE: our profession succeeds. MICHELLE KANE: And it, it just helps everyone all around. KAREN SWIM, APR: So yeah, we're in this together. KAREN SWIM, APR: Rah rah. Stressful. MICHELLE KANE: Yes. KAREN SWIM, APR: Job that we have chosen. KAREN SWIM, APR: And so I do feel like there's always, you know, KAREN SWIM, APR: a hand that is reaching out, willing to help you.

37:04 KAREN SWIM, APR: So take advantage of that. KAREN SWIM, APR: There's again, there's no shame in not knowing how to get from point A to point B, KAREN SWIM, APR: the shame is in, you know, being ashamed that you don't know, KAREN SWIM, APR: because we all know. And I mean, I'm still learning too. KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. That's going to be a forever process. KAREN SWIM, APR: And of course, you know, let us remind you that if you have a question KAREN SWIM, APR: for Michelle and I, we're happy to help too. KAREN SWIM, APR: So just, you know, hit us up and send that question our way and we will help. MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. Visit us at that solo life.com. MICHELLE KANE: Share this around. Hit us up with your questions or your comments. MICHELLE KANE: We want to hear your feedback so we know, we know what to keep talking about to keep MICHELLE KANE: everybody. Everybody doing well.

37:45 MICHELLE KANE: So until next time, thanks for listening. MICHELLE KANE: Thanks for listening to that solo life. MICHELLE KANE: There we go. We're still having MICHELLE KANE: fun. Bye, everybody.