Big Numbers, No Impact: The PR Measurement Gap

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::cue(v[voice="Michelle Kane"]) { color: white }
::cue(v[voice="Karen Swim, APR"]) { color: lime }

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MICHELLE KANE: Hey Karen, quick gut check before we get into
today's topic.

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MICHELLE KANE: Or maybe it's going to lead us into it.

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MICHELLE KANE: Who knows? If a client asked you right now to
prove that anything you did in the last

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MICHELLE KANE: quarter actually moved their business,
could you do it?

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KAREN SWIM, APR: You know, not to sound arrogant,
but I could,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: but only only because I've done the

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KAREN SWIM, APR: work on this, but.

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MICHELLE KANE: Right.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: However, I once was like a lot of PR
practitioners were metrics kind of was not my

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KAREN SWIM, APR: jam. I did what everybody else said that I
should do.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So yeah. But that's exactly the gap that we
want to talk about today.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So welcome back to that Soul Alive,
the podcast for independent PR and

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KAREN SWIM, APR: communication pros who are actually building
a business.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And let me say, independent PR professionals
are really the top of the top of the top of

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KAREN SWIM, APR: practitioners in this business.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So I'm Karen Swim, president of solo PR Pro.

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MICHELLE KANE: And I'm Michelle Cain,
principal of Voice Matters.

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MICHELLE KANE: And it is just the two of us today,
which is absolutely fine.

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MICHELLE KANE: And I agree, we are pretty,
pretty darn good at what we do,

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MICHELLE KANE: if I do say so myself.

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MICHELLE KANE: And I think we don't say that enough. So
we'll say it today.

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MICHELLE KANE: But this one's been building for a little
while and and I know totally what you mean

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MICHELLE KANE: about that. It's like,
oh, okay, how do we solve for X?

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MICHELLE KANE: But I think we've both gotten pretty good at
making sure we know what X is before we even

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MICHELLE KANE: get started. So let's dig in.

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MICHELLE KANE: This is a, this is a little heavier than
usual.

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MICHELLE KANE: So. So hang in with us.

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MICHELLE KANE: A little more industry critique than,
let's say,

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MICHELLE KANE: personal growth, but it definitely matters to
be able to wrangle with our metrics so that

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MICHELLE KANE: we can not just prove our worth.

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MICHELLE KANE: But don't you want to know that what you're
doing is working?

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I agree, and I think that this goes to a lot
of the topics that we've been addressing over

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KAREN SWIM, APR: the past few weeks have been more business
focused.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And this really at the heart of it is about
business acumen.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And so this, this episode came out of the
starting point was a report that meltwater

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KAREN SWIM, APR: and we w e period communications did earlier
this year,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: it was their annual state of the PR report.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And within the thread of,
of this, you know,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: of these numbers, there was something that
said that measurement still hasn't caught up,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: even with everything AI is supposedly doing
for us.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Which feels backwards,
right?

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MICHELLE KANE: Because we have more data than ever.

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MICHELLE KANE: We have plenty of tools.

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MICHELLE KANE: We have more automation,
you know, than our industry has ever had

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MICHELLE KANE: access to. And yet kind of here we are.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So it's exactly that paradox,
Michelle.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And so today, our question is,
you know, with all of these advances,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: what are we actually missing on measurement?

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And more importantly,
why?

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MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. And as always,
all the goods will be in our show notes.

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MICHELLE KANE: So let's dig in. Let's start.

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MICHELLE KANE: What did what did meltwater find?

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So they found that 21% of PR pros say
that measuring impact and ROI is a top

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KAREN SWIM, APR: challenge. 24% pointed to insufficient
resources.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And. And when you ask what's actually
blocking better measurement,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: the top three answers were aligning metrics
to business KPIs.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: 35%. Proving PR's value to leadership 28% and
overreliance on outdated

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KAREN SWIM, APR: metrics 22%.

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MICHELLE KANE: So the bright side is,
is the problem here is not that people,

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MICHELLE KANE: you know, people know that metrics matter.

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MICHELLE KANE: So that's good. Yeah. We don't have to worry
about that.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. They know. But the most commonly used
metrics to evaluate the success of PR efforts

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KAREN SWIM, APR: according to their own data is still the
volume of media placements,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: region impressions. So over 40% of
respondents to the survey said that they're

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KAREN SWIM, APR: still measuring activity instead of outcome.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So. Yeah, probably.

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MICHELLE KANE: A little bit. And that's,
you know, 15 and beyond years,

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MICHELLE KANE: you know, after the Barcelona principles came
around and,

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MICHELLE KANE: you know, told us, stop doing that.

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MICHELLE KANE: 15 years. Come on, guys,
let's get it together.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I know and we're going to talk about
Barcelona too.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's that really makes me sad because it
feels like we're not really paying attention.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And some of this may may come with that lack
of a,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: of a central like training body or
credentialing where we're not,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: we don't all have access to the same set of
information.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And this is not been made the standard by
some industry body.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And so people kind of do their own thing.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. That's true, that's true.

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MICHELLE KANE: You know, and I think it's just something
that I,

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MICHELLE KANE: I think too, in the day to day of our work,
I mean,

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MICHELLE KANE: how often do we talk about how much another
week goes by and we're moving the things

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MICHELLE KANE: along and you don't really have time to stop
and go,

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MICHELLE KANE: okay, wait a second. Yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE: How how is how I'm doing things working,
you know?

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MICHELLE KANE: But yeah.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: There was a, a follow up piece to this.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And Kelly Costello from meltwater.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: She framed it as the challenge isn't a lack
of information.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's connecting communications activity to
the outcomes that matter most to leadership.

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MICHELLE KANE: Right. And sometimes it's hard to make that
direct line.

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MICHELLE KANE: You have to get a little creative to find the
way to connect it,

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MICHELLE KANE: to make it meaningful,
right?

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MICHELLE KANE: So, you know, it's not a straight up data
problem.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE: A unique problem.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And I mean, that is the question,
right?

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So over 70% of respondents said that they
partially or completely already have the

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KAREN SWIM, APR: tools they need to connect PR to business
outcomes.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So it's actually not a primary tools problem
either.

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MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. So I mean,
what do we think.

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MICHELLE KANE: Is it, you know, sometimes our clients have
goals that might not align with what we're

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MICHELLE KANE: able to capture. I don't know what do you
think?

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I mean, I think this isn't a tools gap.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not a knowledge gap.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I think it's the standards and
accountability gap.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And it's you know, it's been sitting
underneath the industry for over a decade.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah, let's unpack that because that's,

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MICHELLE KANE: that's a really big revelation,
I think.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So Barcelona principles in case,
you know,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: people are just like,
okay, kind of I remember hearing about that.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So the American measurement and
evaluation of the Association for.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Okay. Let me give the official title.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: International Association for the Measurement
and Evaluation of Communication.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Amec. Amec. They convened about 200 delegates
from over 30 countries back in 2010.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So the early outs. And they set up a standard
for how PR should be measured.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So basically it's no Avs measure outcomes,
not outputs,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: that kind of thing. And it's been updated
since.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So we're on version 4.0 now.

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MICHELLE KANE: So it's been refined. It's been around a
while.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. It's 15 years old.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And on its fourth revision.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And within their own membership,
people who have opted into caring about this,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: only 3% say Avs are even relevant to an
evaluation program anymore.

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MICHELLE KANE: Exactly. So that's good.

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MICHELLE KANE: So we've made the jump mentally.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah we have. But there's a trap in that
statistic.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Imagine Amex membership is self-selected.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So these are people that are already they
they showed up to a measurement organization.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So you would expect them to be all over this.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: But in the broader, you know,
meltwater survey,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: which is, you know, more representative of
the general population of PR pros.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And and I want to say,
general, make sure you hear that word,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: general, because this is not independent
practitioners,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: it's general that reach and volume are still
the top two metrics that are in actual use.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And so the people who really need the
standard the most are the least likely to be

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KAREN SWIM, APR: in the room where it's being taught.

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MICHELLE KANE: And that gets us back to,
as you know, you said earlier,

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MICHELLE KANE: there's no standard, you know,
we have the Apr,

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MICHELLE KANE: we have things like that. But there is no
one.

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MICHELLE KANE: There's no like American Medical Association
for PR practitioners to keep us on us even a

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MICHELLE KANE: similar page sometimes.

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MICHELLE KANE: You know, our foundations.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Yeah.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So, I mean, you hit the nail on the head.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: It had it's not that these principles were
rejected.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: They were just never distributed.

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MICHELLE KANE: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE: So, you know, yeah. Like I said,
it's not like you can get a you again.

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MICHELLE KANE: You can get your a PR,
but you can't get a CPA public relations,

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MICHELLE KANE: you know, which is a lot,
you know, when you think about how many of us

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MICHELLE KANE: are in the field.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I know.

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MICHELLE KANE: And how do we get there? Right.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I mean, you know, honestly,
and, you know, I,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I have an a PR. I'm a member of PSA.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I honestly don't remember the Barcelona
principles being part of the Credentialing

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KAREN SWIM, APR: process, but I could be remembering wrong.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: But so we have PSA, we have iabc.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: We, you know, we have these voluntary
membership organizations,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: but they're not licensing bodies.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And so that means that nobody is required to
join any of them in order to call themselves

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KAREN SWIM, APR: a PR professional. I don't want to make that
a knock because I think that that's okay.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I love the fact that people come to public
relations in so many diverse ways.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I am one of those people who took a very
crooked path to PR,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: and I'm glad that I had that opportunity.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So this is not a criticism.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's just a lay of the land.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

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MICHELLE KANE: Definitely. It's we it's wonderful that we
have a very varied field.

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MICHELLE KANE: So yeah, I wouldn't say it's a problem to
solve.

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MICHELLE KANE: We just have to find the best way to exist
within this landscape right now and get

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MICHELLE KANE: those metrics.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I mean, when you think about it.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Psa, I think has maybe about 3000 members.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Wow. Yeah. It's not a lot.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Right. It's when there's roughly get this
according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, give or take,
you know, a few thousand there's about 282

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KAREN SWIM, APR: 000 public relations specialists in the US
workforce.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Wow. For 2026. And so that number doesn't
really even include PR and comms managers or

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KAREN SWIM, APR: a lot of agency roles.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So even if you looked at that as a
conservative number,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: that means that even an organization that,
you know,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: we think of as a pretty big organization,
it's,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, it's a global organization
actually,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: but it's, you know, national for the US, it's
just a tiny slice of

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KAREN SWIM, APR: the whole profession.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. That's like 1 in 10.

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MICHELLE KANE: So it's really not even.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. We're not even in,
let's say, one theoretical room.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. That's I mean, that's so true.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And I don't know the the current membership
for Iabc.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: But, you know, again, it's not it's not
200,000 of that 280

194
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KAREN SWIM, APR: 000 people.

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MICHELLE KANE: Right, right, right. So,
you know, like, like we're saying,

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MICHELLE KANE: without a central body that could enforce
Barcelona principles,

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MICHELLE KANE: you know, even if they wanted to,
we're we're as with most things,

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MICHELLE KANE: we're out here having to do it ourselves,
which is fine,

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MICHELLE KANE: but it'd be nice. But hey,
that's all right.

200
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MICHELLE KANE: So there isn't so. Yeah,
we do what we need to do.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: No licensing exam, no continuing education
requirement.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: There's no consequence actually,
to anybody who never learns outcome based

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KAREN SWIM, APR: measurement. And again,
I, I think that's okay because there's lots

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KAREN SWIM, APR: of professions where,
you know, this doesn't exist,

205
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KAREN SWIM, APR: but it makes it tricky when there's something
that can actually help us and there's no way

206
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KAREN SWIM, APR: to effectively put it into place.

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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. No that's true,
that's true.

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MICHELLE KANE: Well, now that we've,
we've belabored the structural side of it,

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MICHELLE KANE: right? But now we want to get over to the
C-suite side of this.

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MICHELLE KANE: How do we make this connection?

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MICHELLE KANE: And, and here's where it does get interesting
because a lot of this data is really

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MICHELLE KANE: very encouraging.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So the conference board surveyed over
1700 C-suite executives.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And for those C-suite outlook and they found
that chief communication officers

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KAREN SWIM, APR: have, quote, earned their seat at the table.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And they're now explicitly expected to be
strategic advisors,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: not just message conveyors.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So I love this because that means corporate
strategy is the top communications priority.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: C-suites want from their CEOs this year.

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MICHELLE KANE: Love that. And it's great to see USC
Annenberg backing that up too.

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MICHELLE KANE: And it plays right into a solo PR pro's
wheelhouse.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: It does. I mean, the the 2026 Global
Communications report,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: which we've talked about they had interviews
with fortune 500 CEOs.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And they found that 91% say polarization has
actually increased the importance of PR

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KAREN SWIM, APR: inside their organization. I could totally
see that.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And two thirds think that their comms
function is likely to get restructured soon.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: 36% say very likely.

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MICHELLE KANE: That's fantastic. So are you saying we
finally got the formal invitation to a seat

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MICHELLE KANE: at the table where we should have been all
these years?

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KAREN SWIM, APR: I, I think that invitation has definitely
been sent.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So I mean, we so here's,
you know, the kind of attention that we're

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KAREN SWIM, APR: talking about. Cisions coms report found that
84% of coms leaders feel increased demand

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KAREN SWIM, APR: from the C-suite for their counsel.

234
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KAREN SWIM, APR: But in that same survey,
37% still struggle to measure impact

235
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KAREN SWIM, APR: effectively. And, and 43% struggle to turn
the data they do have into

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KAREN SWIM, APR: actionable insight.

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MICHELLE KANE: So, so, right. So we've got the invitation to
the strategic table,

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MICHELLE KANE: maybe faster than we've built the,
you know,

239
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MICHELLE KANE: that muscle to to sit at it credibly.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I mean, I, I kind of think that so the
c-suites expectations have moved a little

241
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KAREN SWIM, APR: faster than the fields,
infrastructure, education standards,

242
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KAREN SWIM, APR: accountability, and I think all of Meltwaters
numbers go back to that mismatch.

243
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KAREN SWIM, APR: And I to me this, you know,
I said the the words earlier,

244
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KAREN SWIM, APR: but it's true. This is a business acumen
problem.

245
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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not that we're not knowledgeable.

246
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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not that we don't know that oh my God,
we do need to align these numbers.

247
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KAREN SWIM, APR: We just don't have the language and the
knowledge to understand the language of

248
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KAREN SWIM, APR: business and how to translate the language of
PR so that it maps back.

249
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. So true. And yeah,
not to throw this back on clients.

250
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MICHELLE KANE: Sometimes the thing that they think we should
be measuring for,

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MICHELLE KANE: yeah, isn't what we should be measuring for.

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MICHELLE KANE: And sometimes, I mean,
even a, you know, campaign I'm running right

253
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MICHELLE KANE: now, it's, it's not achieving,
you know, item A,

254
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MICHELLE KANE: but it is doing a lot in other ways.

255
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MICHELLE KANE: So it's just being able to communicate that
and decide,

256
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MICHELLE KANE: you know, what's on the plate. But that kind
of brings us to our PIE,

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MICHELLE KANE: which I know is the part we've really been
wanting to get into. Let's talk about it.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And you know, part of so for those who
may not know,

259
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KAREN SWIM, APR: because here again, here's a term that I
think so many PR posts don't know.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Our Pi is research, planning,
implementation and evaluation.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: So this is this, that standard planning
cycle.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And it's taught in PR programs.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: But maybe you didn't go to school for PR.

264
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KAREN SWIM, APR: I did not I really became familiar with this
after I had been practicing for many years,

265
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KAREN SWIM, APR: and I've been doing this.

266
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KAREN SWIM, APR: I didn't know that was the name.

267
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MICHELLE KANE: But I messed it up. Yeah.

268
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KAREN SWIM, APR: When I got credentialed, that's when I

269
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KAREN SWIM, APR: really, really learned it.

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MICHELLE KANE: So yeah.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: We I think that you said something really
important evaluation.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And that's not just, it's not just evaluation
at the end.

273
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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's its evaluation during a campaign so that
you can make tweaks.

274
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KAREN SWIM, APR: But evaluation means honestly looking at what
failed,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: because that is knowledge.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: And I think, Michel, as you said,
like you, you know,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: this business, you're really good at what you
do and you,

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KAREN SWIM, APR: you understand this, but some of our younger
PR pros or people who maybe came up a

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KAREN SWIM, APR: different side of the industry and by nature
of our optimism,

280
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KAREN SWIM, APR: in spite of the stress of our jobs,
we want things to go really well.

281
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KAREN SWIM, APR: So I think it's really hard to embrace that
that failure is a reportable metric.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's important. It's meaningful.

283
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KAREN SWIM, APR: It shows you where you need to maybe tweak
your,

284
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KAREN SWIM, APR: your tactics or where you might need to
refine your messaging,

285
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KAREN SWIM, APR: where you may take another look at your
audiences and make sure that you didn't miss

286
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KAREN SWIM, APR: its information. And yeah,
it can help you to improve in the future.

287
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KAREN SWIM, APR: So don't be afraid to measure or I see this
all the time.

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KAREN SWIM, APR: Again, it's human nature. Like,
I don't want to report that because it's not

289
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KAREN SWIM, APR: great. It didn't do all of the things it was
supposed to do.

290
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KAREN SWIM, APR: That's a big mistake.

291
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. And I think a way back from that
or to protect against that is at the

292
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MICHELLE KANE: beginning of a campaign.

293
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MICHELLE KANE: You just say, hey, we are making the best
informed choices that we can,

294
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MICHELLE KANE: given what we know and what we have at hand.

295
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MICHELLE KANE: We may find out that it's completely
different,

296
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MICHELLE KANE: but we're going to find out and we'll adapt
from there.

297
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, it's I love what you say.

298
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MICHELLE KANE: It's information.

299
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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's information because it.

300
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KAREN SWIM, APR: But it also points to that need to really do
your research.

301
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KAREN SWIM, APR: And I think, yes, there's a lot of pressure
sometimes to fast track.

302
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KAREN SWIM, APR: I'm always leery of, for example,
a client coming to you and wanting to get

303
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KAREN SWIM, APR: started immediately because to me that says
PR is an afterthought.

304
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KAREN SWIM, APR: It's not something that they're going to
allow for a planned strategic process.

305
00:20:33.590 --> 00:20:39.110
KAREN SWIM, APR: And I get it in these economic times,
sometimes you want to say yes immediately

306
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KAREN SWIM, APR: because here's somebody wanting to give you
money to do a job that you love in a time

307
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KAREN SWIM, APR: when business is moving very slowly.

308
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KAREN SWIM, APR: I get it, but I would say ideally that's a
red flag because it means that they're

309
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KAREN SWIM, APR: looking to you for tactics.

310
00:20:55.230 --> 00:20:57.030
KAREN SWIM, APR: They're looking for tactics.

311
00:20:57.030 --> 00:21:01.070
KAREN SWIM, APR: But guess what? They are going to want
business outcomes.

312
00:21:01.070 --> 00:21:07.750
KAREN SWIM, APR: And when you jump into something like that,
your mind is not thinking about that.

313
00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:10.790
KAREN SWIM, APR: Your mind is thinking,
I can work really hard.

314
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KAREN SWIM, APR: I can get these outputs right.

315
00:21:13.590 --> 00:21:20.150
KAREN SWIM, APR: But when they say, but it really didn't do
anything because at the end of the day,

316
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KAREN SWIM, APR: it's the business outcomes that really
matter,

317
00:21:22.790 --> 00:21:24.390
KAREN SWIM, APR: not the outputs.

318
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MICHELLE KANE: Right? Right. And that that is putting my
algebraic hat on.

319
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MICHELLE KANE: That is the X we are solving for business
outcomes.

320
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KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So I mean.

321
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Right.

322
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KAREN SWIM, APR: We are.

323
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. Don't ask me to frame it in

324
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MICHELLE KANE: geometry. That ship has sailed.

325
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KAREN SWIM, APR: But I know and I, so our industry we are
struggling,

326
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KAREN SWIM, APR: right? We're struggling to measure our own
output output because we don't even measure

327
00:21:54.320 --> 00:21:55.880
KAREN SWIM, APR: how we spend our own time either.

328
00:21:56.200 --> 00:22:03.080
KAREN SWIM, APR: You know, we don't. So we do have meltwaters
finding that measurement and reporting is one

329
00:22:03.080 --> 00:22:06.680
KAREN SWIM, APR: of the biggest time sinks PR teams report.

330
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.240
KAREN SWIM, APR: And, and I can, I can confirm it does take
time.

331
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KAREN SWIM, APR: And that insufficient resources is our second
biggest measurement barrier at 24%.

332
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KAREN SWIM, APR: So when you put all that together,
really, it just means that everybody's busy

333
00:22:22.840 --> 00:22:27.050
KAREN SWIM, APR: doing the middle of the cycle to properly do
the ends of it.

334
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. No, that's so true.

335
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MICHELLE KANE: And yeah, when you're,
you're so busy just trying to make things

336
00:22:33.090 --> 00:22:36.090
MICHELLE KANE: happen every day, it's like I don't have time
for one more thing,

337
00:22:36.090 --> 00:22:41.010
MICHELLE KANE: but you really need again,
make that time.

338
00:22:41.130 --> 00:22:42.130
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah.

339
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MICHELLE KANE: Because eventually it's going to make your
life so much easier and you're going to look

340
00:22:47.010 --> 00:22:52.330
MICHELLE KANE: so much smarter because you'll be operating,
you'll be operating smarter.

341
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KAREN SWIM, APR: And I mean, shout out to,
you know, our fellow independents.

342
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KAREN SWIM, APR: I think a barrier that no report is going to
capture is that there are so many great tools

343
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KAREN SWIM, APR: out there that do some of the heavy lifting,
but they are unaffordable.

344
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah.

345
00:23:10.450 --> 00:23:15.890
KAREN SWIM, APR: Can I just say that we do not have,
you know,

346
00:23:15.930 --> 00:23:21.690
KAREN SWIM, APR: to a $250,000 budget to just spend on tools
and we do not have,

347
00:23:21.730 --> 00:23:27.260
KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, teams of that people lined up where
the lift is distributed,

348
00:23:27.260 --> 00:23:31.020
KAREN SWIM, APR: but we serve the same clients and the
requirements are still the same.

349
00:23:31.020 --> 00:23:36.220
KAREN SWIM, APR: So I feel your pain. I,
I cannot tell you I have spent,

350
00:23:37.060 --> 00:23:43.380
KAREN SWIM, APR: I've spent like an entire week,
like literally 40 hours worth of work,

351
00:23:44.020 --> 00:23:49.420
KAREN SWIM, APR: still doing other things,
figuring out where I can get information to

352
00:23:49.460 --> 00:23:55.460
KAREN SWIM, APR: build measurement dashboards because I did
not have $250,000 to spend.

353
00:23:55.980 --> 00:24:02.860
KAREN SWIM, APR: And so I understand and but once you know,
you dig in and you start looking for the

354
00:24:02.860 --> 00:24:07.060
KAREN SWIM, APR: information that you really need and how to
best get that to be repeatable.

355
00:24:07.060 --> 00:24:09.780
KAREN SWIM, APR: And you build the dashboard. It's built,
it's done.

356
00:24:09.820 --> 00:24:15.220
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. But I, I just want to know that we see
you and we completely understand.

357
00:24:15.260 --> 00:24:18.220
KAREN SWIM, APR: So there's this, I can understand why it's
difficult,

358
00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:24.070
KAREN SWIM, APR: number one, to first start to learn what's
meaningful to business and how to speak in

359
00:24:24.110 --> 00:24:29.990
KAREN SWIM, APR: that language. But then to know on some level
what you should be reporting,

360
00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:33.990
KAREN SWIM, APR: but not know how to get that information,
that that is a real struggle.

361
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MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And I think sometimes part of it too
is,

362
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MICHELLE KANE: you know, the clients will think it's one
thing,

363
00:24:40.990 --> 00:24:45.230
MICHELLE KANE: but you really have to have a deeper
conversation with them to really get to the

364
00:24:45.230 --> 00:24:49.190
MICHELLE KANE: point, because sometimes there are other
factors as well that matter,

365
00:24:49.190 --> 00:24:54.830
MICHELLE KANE: that just because no one has taken the time
to talk about it.

366
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KAREN SWIM, APR: Absolutely.

367
00:24:56.030 --> 00:24:58.590
MICHELLE KANE: Could be other things to,
to put in the mix because, you know,

368
00:24:58.950 --> 00:25:01.710
MICHELLE KANE: have more things to measure in your homemade
dashboards.

369
00:25:02.870 --> 00:25:04.870
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. But it's good.

370
00:25:05.150 --> 00:25:06.150
MICHELLE KANE: It's all right. It is.

371
00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:11.390
KAREN SWIM, APR: Good. I mean, I, it's satisfying once you can
conquer this.

372
00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:15.430
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And then you have to conquer it again
because things change.

373
00:25:15.430 --> 00:25:23.280
KAREN SWIM, APR: But it, this is a good thing to try to find
some time to learn more about and to,

374
00:25:23.320 --> 00:25:27.680
KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, find the right tool mix,
team up with other pros.

375
00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:29.000
KAREN SWIM, APR: Like I'm seeing a lot of that.

376
00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:33.680
KAREN SWIM, APR: And I think that's smart so that we can share
information and resources.

377
00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:38.200
KAREN SWIM, APR: Because it's, it's tough,
but, but we have to,

378
00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:44.440
KAREN SWIM, APR: we have to be ready to own that strategic
advisor seat.

379
00:25:44.800 --> 00:25:51.320
KAREN SWIM, APR: And that means being able to confidently talk
about how what we do moves the

380
00:25:51.320 --> 00:25:52.600
KAREN SWIM, APR: business forward.

381
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:58.120
MICHELLE KANE: Absolutely. And we always like a framework to
help our listeners.

382
00:25:58.120 --> 00:26:01.800
MICHELLE KANE: So yeah, we have a three question filter.

383
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:03.520
MICHELLE KANE: Let's, let's dig into that.

384
00:26:04.560 --> 00:26:06.960
KAREN SWIM, APR: Okay. Do we is it three?

385
00:26:07.280 --> 00:26:10.120
MICHELLE KANE: It's a three, I think so,
yeah.

386
00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:12.200
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. We do, we do we do we, we have

387
00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:13.280
KAREN SWIM, APR: three questions. So

388
00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:15.720
MICHELLE KANE: It's a nice round.

389
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:16.040
KAREN SWIM, APR: Three.

390
00:26:16.040 --> 00:26:17.640
MICHELLE KANE: Right round number.

391
00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:21.730
KAREN SWIM, APR: Okay, so here we go. First piece of this.

392
00:26:21.770 --> 00:26:24.570
KAREN SWIM, APR: The first question is for your current
clients.

393
00:26:24.970 --> 00:26:32.410
KAREN SWIM, APR: Could you name the 2 or 3 specific business
KPIs that your work is actually supposed to

394
00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:35.130
KAREN SWIM, APR: move? Not outputs. Actual business KPIs.

395
00:26:35.410 --> 00:26:38.170
MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. Just solid things that we can
point to.

396
00:26:38.210 --> 00:26:41.250
MICHELLE KANE: Right. Yeah. And then the second thing would
be.

397
00:26:42.890 --> 00:26:48.690
KAREN SWIM, APR: Have you scheduled evaluation as its own real
block of time separate from the campaign

398
00:26:48.690 --> 00:26:52.890
KAREN SWIM, APR: itself, or does it just kind of happen when
there's time left over at the end?

399
00:26:52.930 --> 00:26:55.050
KAREN SWIM, APR: You need to be honest about that with
yourself.

400
00:26:55.050 --> 00:26:57.010
KAREN SWIM, APR: No one's listening. No one's judging.

401
00:26:57.010 --> 00:26:58.450
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, I think that's huge too.

402
00:26:58.490 --> 00:27:00.930
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And you owe it to yourself to do that
for

403
00:27:00.930 --> 00:27:02.210
MICHELLE KANE: sure. And three.

404
00:27:03.370 --> 00:27:09.770
KAREN SWIM, APR: This is a big one. Could you defend your
measurement approach to a skeptical CFO in

405
00:27:09.770 --> 00:27:14.930
KAREN SWIM, APR: 60s using outcome language,
not reach and impressions?

406
00:27:15.090 --> 00:27:17.020
KAREN SWIM, APR: And if you flinched at that question.

407
00:27:17.660 --> 00:27:19.140
KAREN SWIM, APR: Don't worry. That's not a failure.

408
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:21.340
KAREN SWIM, APR: That's just useful information.

409
00:27:21.620 --> 00:27:25.420
MICHELLE KANE: Exactly, exactly. Because you know,
so often,

410
00:27:25.420 --> 00:27:27.860
MICHELLE KANE: right. It's like, well,
you got this many impressions and the

411
00:27:27.860 --> 00:27:31.260
MICHELLE KANE: client's like, well, what does that mean? And
you're like, oh yeah,

412
00:27:31.620 --> 00:27:39.180
MICHELLE KANE: people saw it. So. And I get it because,
I mean,

413
00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:40.980
MICHELLE KANE: sometimes it is just nebulous,
right?

414
00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:43.620
MICHELLE KANE: You're like, yeah, so yeah.

415
00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:45.020
MICHELLE KANE: So all right, let's run a drill.

416
00:27:45.020 --> 00:27:48.020
MICHELLE KANE: Let's say one of our listeners runs media
relations.

417
00:27:48.020 --> 00:27:51.500
MICHELLE KANE: I don't know for a regional health care
system.

418
00:27:51.540 --> 00:27:59.580
MICHELLE KANE: Right. Okay. And their main deliverable has
always been placement counts and those

419
00:27:59.780 --> 00:28:02.820
MICHELLE KANE: impressions in the monthly report.

420
00:28:03.140 --> 00:28:05.740
KAREN SWIM, APR: So the numbers and the pretty,
pretty reports.

421
00:28:06.220 --> 00:28:10.540
KAREN SWIM, APR: So I would say the first question is about
business KPIs.

422
00:28:10.540 --> 00:28:17.910
KAREN SWIM, APR: That person would need to sit down with their
client and you actually want to talk to them.

423
00:28:17.950 --> 00:28:23.110
KAREN SWIM, APR: You want to ask like what business result the
placements are supposed to support?

424
00:28:23.110 --> 00:28:26.430
KAREN SWIM, APR: Because there's always a reason why we're not
just out there,

425
00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:31.070
KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, doing earned media because it looks
good or to have something to put on a

426
00:28:31.070 --> 00:28:32.470
KAREN SWIM, APR: website. We know that,
right?

427
00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:34.110
KAREN SWIM, APR: But you need to talk to your clients.

428
00:28:34.110 --> 00:28:40.270
KAREN SWIM, APR: So is it patient volume in a specific service
line?

429
00:28:40.270 --> 00:28:42.030
KAREN SWIM, APR: Is it donor confidence?

430
00:28:42.030 --> 00:28:44.070
KAREN SWIM, APR: Is it physician recruitment?

431
00:28:44.510 --> 00:28:46.110
KAREN SWIM, APR: It has to be something concrete.

432
00:28:46.110 --> 00:28:48.990
KAREN SWIM, APR: Right. And if if they can't answer that
today,

433
00:28:49.430 --> 00:28:52.630
KAREN SWIM, APR: then that's that's a real starting point,
right?

434
00:28:52.670 --> 00:28:54.350
KAREN SWIM, APR: It's it's not a measurement tool.

435
00:28:54.350 --> 00:28:58.230
KAREN SWIM, APR: It's a starting point for,
you know, getting to what really matters.

436
00:28:58.230 --> 00:29:03.190
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And, and I think that's helpful for the
client as well to start thinking in those in

437
00:29:03.230 --> 00:29:07.030
MICHELLE KANE: that respect. And also especially in
healthcare,

438
00:29:07.550 --> 00:29:09.870
MICHELLE KANE: it's going to change for every campaign.

439
00:29:10.390 --> 00:29:12.950
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah, that is so true.

440
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:20.440
MICHELLE KANE: So question two, as we're working through
this establishing your evaluation as its

441
00:29:20.440 --> 00:29:21.440
MICHELLE KANE: own time block.

442
00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:27.960
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. So this is might be a typical like
process that we use the,

443
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.080
KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, you do the work,
the placements go out,

444
00:29:30.080 --> 00:29:32.480
KAREN SWIM, APR: the report goes out and then the next
campaign starts,

445
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.840
KAREN SWIM, APR: right? Yeah. And there's no evaluation phase.

446
00:29:36.080 --> 00:29:38.960
KAREN SWIM, APR: You've done the reporting,
which you're considering like that's

447
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:42.400
KAREN SWIM, APR: evaluation, but it's just activity followed
by more activity.

448
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:46.840
KAREN SWIM, APR: So I would say even blocking out,
you know, a few hours at the end of every

449
00:29:46.840 --> 00:29:52.120
KAREN SWIM, APR: quarter to ask, you know,
did this move the number we agreed on?

450
00:29:52.120 --> 00:29:53.840
KAREN SWIM, APR: That's a structural change.

451
00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:58.120
KAREN SWIM, APR: I know that rather than waiting out the
quarter,

452
00:29:58.120 --> 00:30:00.520
KAREN SWIM, APR: because that gets to be really a lot of work,

453
00:30:00.520 --> 00:30:03.000
KAREN SWIM, APR: even though for, you know,
a lot of clients,

454
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:06.040
KAREN SWIM, APR: we only have to do quarterly measurement
reports.

455
00:30:06.040 --> 00:30:09.400
KAREN SWIM, APR: I still look at it every month because,
you know,

456
00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:12.690
KAREN SWIM, APR: as the people that are running the,
you know,

457
00:30:12.730 --> 00:30:17.810
KAREN SWIM, APR: strategic campaigns. We still need to be able
to make adjustments when we can.

458
00:30:17.810 --> 00:30:21.330
KAREN SWIM, APR: We don't want to wait until the end and do
only one measurement.

459
00:30:21.330 --> 00:30:24.970
KAREN SWIM, APR: We're measuring every month to see like,
are we,

460
00:30:25.010 --> 00:30:27.970
KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, how are we progressing towards the
outcomes?

461
00:30:28.010 --> 00:30:30.090
KAREN SWIM, APR: You know, what are we moving the needle on?

462
00:30:30.090 --> 00:30:34.210
KAREN SWIM, APR: What is something that we may need to
address? So I would say probably is a good

463
00:30:34.210 --> 00:30:37.970
KAREN SWIM, APR: practice. And especially if you're just
starting out, block out time at the end of

464
00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:40.090
KAREN SWIM, APR: every month. And I mean,
if you could do it,

465
00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:42.490
KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, twice a month,
that's even better.

466
00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:44.890
KAREN SWIM, APR: But you don't want to overwhelm yourself.

467
00:30:44.890 --> 00:30:47.130
KAREN SWIM, APR: But, you know, you need to look at it so
that,

468
00:30:47.130 --> 00:30:51.770
KAREN SWIM, APR: you know, so that you can affect change and
make recommendations.

469
00:30:51.970 --> 00:30:54.570
MICHELLE KANE: Absolutely. And it's,
it's great when the information tells you

470
00:30:54.570 --> 00:30:58.130
MICHELLE KANE: something and you can make that change. I
mean, right now I'm working with a client and

471
00:30:58.330 --> 00:31:03.450
MICHELLE KANE: we have an ad in a movie theater that has a
QR code that leads to a downloadable well,

472
00:31:03.450 --> 00:31:05.850
MICHELLE KANE: in the movie theater,
it's not really leading to that. We're

473
00:31:05.850 --> 00:31:09.210
MICHELLE KANE: getting far more traction with the static
piece on social.

474
00:31:09.210 --> 00:31:10.700
MICHELLE KANE: But that's not a failure.

475
00:31:10.700 --> 00:31:15.060
MICHELLE KANE: And that's not bad because they're still
getting awareness and expertise is being

476
00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:22.260
MICHELLE KANE: established. Fine. And you know,
it's yeah, it's it's not,

477
00:31:22.300 --> 00:31:24.860
MICHELLE KANE: it's not always, oh my gosh,
it didn't do exactly what I want.

478
00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:26.020
MICHELLE KANE: It's all right. Be cool.

479
00:31:26.620 --> 00:31:28.620
KAREN SWIM, APR: So I love that.

480
00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:33.100
MICHELLE KANE: Look at that on our new solo PR pro.

481
00:31:33.140 --> 00:31:34.260
MICHELLE KANE: It's all right. Be cool.

482
00:31:38.900 --> 00:31:42.500
MICHELLE KANE: You know so it's you know it's it's and and
just to say,

483
00:31:42.500 --> 00:31:45.340
MICHELLE KANE: it's not always about buying a new tool,
you know,

484
00:31:45.380 --> 00:31:50.180
MICHELLE KANE: that that might work for our home projects,
but not so much with our PR campaign.

485
00:31:51.220 --> 00:31:54.940
KAREN SWIM, APR: Probably doesn't work for our home projects.
Not, not at this point anyway.

486
00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:58.180
MICHELLE KANE: Oh, no. Exactly. We know we need just I need
someone to do it anyway.

487
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:04.660
MICHELLE KANE: Oh my gosh. But yeah,
and I think you've seen that meltwater data

488
00:32:04.700 --> 00:32:07.060
MICHELLE KANE: really proves that it's not always about the
tools.

489
00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:09.300
KAREN SWIM, APR: It isn't. No it isn't.

490
00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:13.340
MICHELLE KANE: So. All right, so before we wrap,
let's zoom out.

491
00:32:13.820 --> 00:32:14.820
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah.

492
00:32:14.820 --> 00:32:18.700
MICHELLE KANE: Right. We've really taken a deep dive in.

493
00:32:18.700 --> 00:32:23.620
MICHELLE KANE: Let's, let's back up a little bit and talk
about how this matters beyond any one

494
00:32:23.620 --> 00:32:27.460
MICHELLE KANE: particular client, you know, report from any

495
00:32:27.460 --> 00:32:28.700
MICHELLE KANE: practitioner, right?

496
00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:35.660
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I so this is going to sound grave in a
way,

497
00:32:35.660 --> 00:32:39.300
KAREN SWIM, APR: but you know, I've said this before,
so it's not a surprise.

498
00:32:39.580 --> 00:32:46.580
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. I do believe that every single one of
us can get sharper on business acumen

499
00:32:47.340 --> 00:32:50.500
KAREN SWIM, APR: measuring outcomes and not outputs.

500
00:32:51.020 --> 00:32:56.620
KAREN SWIM, APR: And I've been sounding the alarm long before
this economy became trash,

501
00:32:56.620 --> 00:32:58.860
KAREN SWIM, APR: long before all of the events of the day.

502
00:32:59.180 --> 00:33:05.180
KAREN SWIM, APR: But I honestly feel like this is not a nice
to do.

503
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:10.910
KAREN SWIM, APR: This is the life of your PR business and
career.

504
00:33:11.230 --> 00:33:18.870
KAREN SWIM, APR: We have to get better about being business
people and not just comms people,

505
00:33:18.870 --> 00:33:24.950
KAREN SWIM, APR: or we are not going to be able to secure and
maintain work.

506
00:33:26.070 --> 00:33:29.990
KAREN SWIM, APR: Honestly, I don't say that lightly.

507
00:33:29.990 --> 00:33:36.590
KAREN SWIM, APR: And I don't say that about a lot of things,
but I do feel very strongly and I challenge

508
00:33:36.590 --> 00:33:41.830
KAREN SWIM, APR: myself, like, this is something that actually
keeps me up at night as I look at what I'm

509
00:33:41.830 --> 00:33:46.270
KAREN SWIM, APR: doing. And I'm always looking,
you know, reading other things and trying to

510
00:33:46.310 --> 00:33:51.110
KAREN SWIM, APR: learn more, because I know that if I cannot
show my value,

511
00:33:51.350 --> 00:33:53.110
KAREN SWIM, APR: I am not going to have a job.

512
00:33:53.510 --> 00:33:57.110
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah. And that's honestly,
that's always been the name of the game as,

513
00:33:57.150 --> 00:33:58.430
MICHELLE KANE: as we build our businesses.

514
00:33:58.430 --> 00:34:04.110
MICHELLE KANE: And I think, yeah, you know,
it's a lot of what we as independent

515
00:34:04.320 --> 00:34:10.400
MICHELLE KANE: Practitioners. I can't imagine an independent
practitioner not thinking that way.

516
00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:14.560
MICHELLE KANE: I'm sure there are some,
but yeah, we have to stay on top of things.

517
00:34:14.560 --> 00:34:18.720
MICHELLE KANE: And and I mean, you are you are a business
person.

518
00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:22.080
MICHELLE KANE: So you've already taken the first step.

519
00:34:22.080 --> 00:34:28.280
MICHELLE KANE: So yeah, we really need to be sharp and
understand just what's going on out there,

520
00:34:28.640 --> 00:34:32.400
MICHELLE KANE: especially in the industries that you're
serving and,

521
00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:36.920
MICHELLE KANE: and what that means and what your clients
need from you.

522
00:34:37.720 --> 00:34:44.360
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. And I mean, I want to say this,
do not feel bad because I,

523
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:48.280
KAREN SWIM, APR: I truly believe that everyone knows this on
some level,

524
00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:53.480
KAREN SWIM, APR: but you really may just not know how to get
from where you are to where you need to be.

525
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:55.160
KAREN SWIM, APR: That is really okay.

526
00:34:55.480 --> 00:34:56.480
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah.

527
00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:00.520
KAREN SWIM, APR: Come to a safe space,
talk about it with peers that may be doing

528
00:35:00.520 --> 00:35:03.160
KAREN SWIM, APR: things and that can help you can show you.

529
00:35:03.160 --> 00:35:03.850
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah.

530
00:35:03.850 --> 00:35:06.930
KAREN SWIM, APR: You don't have to like buy,
you know, courses.

531
00:35:06.930 --> 00:35:11.690
KAREN SWIM, APR: Although if you want to go that route,
we can point you to some fabulous resources

532
00:35:11.690 --> 00:35:13.570
KAREN SWIM, APR: to learn more about measurement.

533
00:35:13.770 --> 00:35:15.450
KAREN SWIM, APR: There's also free resources.

534
00:35:15.450 --> 00:35:20.210
KAREN SWIM, APR: Don't forget about books you that you can
check out from the library.

535
00:35:20.210 --> 00:35:24.050
KAREN SWIM, APR: You don't even have to buy them. There's,
there's books, for example, on our Pi and you

536
00:35:24.050 --> 00:35:26.730
KAREN SWIM, APR: can see how practitioners have used this.

537
00:35:26.730 --> 00:35:32.650
KAREN SWIM, APR: And so you can take advantage of their case
studies and learn how they implemented this

538
00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:34.970
KAREN SWIM, APR: and how they evaluated campaigns.

539
00:35:34.970 --> 00:35:39.930
KAREN SWIM, APR: There's yeah, just so many things out there,
but your peers can really help you.

540
00:35:39.970 --> 00:35:43.850
KAREN SWIM, APR: Don't be ashamed if you have questions and
you're like,

541
00:35:44.090 --> 00:35:47.730
KAREN SWIM, APR: oh, I'm not as good at this or I don't really
know where to start.

542
00:35:47.930 --> 00:35:49.290
KAREN SWIM, APR: There's no shame in that.

543
00:35:49.290 --> 00:35:55.690
KAREN SWIM, APR: We're, we're doing this episode because it's
our desire to make sure that we are

544
00:35:55.690 --> 00:36:03.180
KAREN SWIM, APR: supporting you and protecting your livelihood
and making sure that none of us gets left

545
00:36:03.180 --> 00:36:07.140
KAREN SWIM, APR: behind by something that's critical to the
people that we serve.

546
00:36:07.180 --> 00:36:10.820
MICHELLE KANE: Right, right. And, you know,
and even the process of our pie,

547
00:36:10.860 --> 00:36:13.660
MICHELLE KANE: it's like, well, yeah,
of course, this is what we do. And oh, now

548
00:36:13.860 --> 00:36:16.940
MICHELLE KANE: there's a name for it. Of course,
you know, and,

549
00:36:16.940 --> 00:36:20.340
MICHELLE KANE: and that is what you may have your own,
you know,

550
00:36:20.380 --> 00:36:23.180
MICHELLE KANE: cadre of, of colleagues that you can trust.

551
00:36:23.180 --> 00:36:28.780
MICHELLE KANE: And certainly with the solo PR pro member
community is for it is the ultimate safe

552
00:36:28.780 --> 00:36:33.900
MICHELLE KANE: space. You know, it's where we can come
together and help each other problem solve.

553
00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:37.940
MICHELLE KANE: And I think that's what's really beautiful
about our industry as a whole.

554
00:36:38.140 --> 00:36:39.140
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yes.

555
00:36:39.140 --> 00:36:43.020
MICHELLE KANE: I, you know, nothing's perfect,
but I think as a whole,

556
00:36:43.020 --> 00:36:47.340
MICHELLE KANE: we are eager to see each other succeed
because when that happens,

557
00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:48.620
MICHELLE KANE: our profession succeeds.

558
00:36:48.620 --> 00:36:51.220
MICHELLE KANE: And it, it just helps everyone all around.

559
00:36:51.820 --> 00:36:54.060
KAREN SWIM, APR: So yeah, we're in this together.

560
00:36:54.140 --> 00:36:56.220
KAREN SWIM, APR: Rah rah. Stressful.

561
00:36:56.220 --> 00:36:57.180
MICHELLE KANE: Yes.

562
00:36:57.180 --> 00:36:58.620
KAREN SWIM, APR: Job that we have chosen.

563
00:36:58.620 --> 00:37:01.710
KAREN SWIM, APR: And so I do feel like there's always,
you know,

564
00:37:01.750 --> 00:37:04.470
KAREN SWIM, APR: a hand that is reaching out,
willing to help you.

565
00:37:04.470 --> 00:37:05.710
KAREN SWIM, APR: So take advantage of that.

566
00:37:05.710 --> 00:37:10.230
KAREN SWIM, APR: There's again, there's no shame in not
knowing how to get from point A to point B,

567
00:37:10.270 --> 00:37:13.790
KAREN SWIM, APR: the shame is in, you know,
being ashamed that you don't know,

568
00:37:13.790 --> 00:37:17.030
KAREN SWIM, APR: because we all know. And I mean,
I'm still learning too.

569
00:37:17.230 --> 00:37:19.670
KAREN SWIM, APR: Yeah. That's going to be a forever process.

570
00:37:19.670 --> 00:37:23.950
KAREN SWIM, APR: And of course, you know,
let us remind you that if you have a question

571
00:37:23.950 --> 00:37:25.990
KAREN SWIM, APR: for Michelle and I, we're happy to help too.

572
00:37:26.030 --> 00:37:31.270
KAREN SWIM, APR: So just, you know, hit us up and send that
question our way and we will help.

573
00:37:31.310 --> 00:37:34.070
MICHELLE KANE: Yeah, yeah. Visit us at that solo life.com.

574
00:37:34.470 --> 00:37:38.110
MICHELLE KANE: Share this around. Hit us up with your
questions or your comments.

575
00:37:38.110 --> 00:37:42.830
MICHELLE KANE: We want to hear your feedback so we know,
we know what to keep talking about to keep

576
00:37:42.830 --> 00:37:45.470
MICHELLE KANE: everybody. Everybody doing well.

577
00:37:45.710 --> 00:37:49.790
MICHELLE KANE: So until next time, thanks for listening.

578
00:37:49.990 --> 00:37:51.950
MICHELLE KANE: Thanks for listening to that solo life.

579
00:37:51.950 --> 00:37:56.110
MICHELLE KANE: There we go. We're still having

580
00:37:56.110 --> 00:37:57.430
MICHELLE KANE: fun. Bye, everybody.